I just like to keep poking the corpse which is this room of the forum.

илия

Sea Billies???

STOP making fun of my Newfoundland relatives.

S-I

Is that a song?

Podiakon R.

Dear Ilya Romanovich,

I love your avatar. It reminds me of home and youth.

BTW, my OCS prof (Reader Joseph) spoke highly of you, Daniil, and Cyril. He was especially impressed with Daniil's questions, and with the knowledge and fervor the three of your are endowed with.

AK

There are many of us who are similarly impressed. Now the only question is: can we dispense with the age requirements to make them hierarchs?

Perhaps they are not quite ready for the vow of celibacy required of hierarchs?

Speaking of celibacy, how is married life, Adam?

Dear Friends,

To the making of these three hierarchs - I give my hearty "Axios!"

And I also predict that Ilya will one day become a bishop . . .

Alex

Considering Illya's screen name, I don't think it is the episcopate he has in mind...

That’s nonsense Diak.

Lets have one thing at a time.

He's off to Ottawa gone, then...

Patience.


JL.

Diak,

Married life is quite splendid so far! We've even had our first fight which--as with all of them in hindsight--was over nothing terribly substantial; but it did provide for a rather delicious reconciliation!

Ahh, Adam, you are a quick learner, grasshopper...

And Jose, as a recently retired Ukrainian Catholic bishop said once, it is difficult to say if the episcopacy is a blessing or curse...

I'm just jealous that Illya nabbed that screen name...

Dear Diak,

And what's your new avatar?

Is that you about to enter Church on Sunday?

Alex

Dear Diak:

Point well taken.

After the first Parastas for Bishop Isidore, Memory Eternal, we were walking to the bus stop and met a priest who was known to us.

After initial greetings the Priest I was with said to the other, "they should have appointed you Bishop".

The other Father responded "I thought you were my friend, how could you wish such a terrible thing on a poor monk".

God help all our Hierarchs.


defreitas

watch your mouths.

i just wanna be Daniil's deacon when the time comes.

ilya

He's certainly got my vote to be an eparch! Whether curse or not, it certainly would be a GREAT BLESSING for the Church!

Herb

It's hard to watch our mouths with that avatar... Maybe watch your mouth? Or was that wash our mouths???

You know Guys:

History has shown that the best Bishops were the ones who had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the episcopate by their spiritual brothers.

Axios anyone?

He, They, are Worthy.


JL.


PS.
Gavshev, I did see those Proto-Deacon vestments, just truely magnificent. They must be purchased somehow.

Yes, that protodeacon set is only 1,200$ US on sale. Actually quite a bargain for the quality of work involved (it's tough to beat his work quality). I'm having him make me a blue set (single orarion) with velvet shoulders.

There are several bishops who fled to the wilderness once they found out they were being considered for the episcopacy - some were found as hermits and wisked away back for their consecration (perhaps even more resistance than just kicking and screaming).

Where is this protodiaconal set of vestments of which you speak, Diak? Sounds very interesting.

I have a question about colours of vestments. This came up yesterday here in chapel. Most rubrics indicate that this services this week, post-festive of the Exaltation, are to be served in red. Is this universally the case? What are the other options? Purple anybody??!! Please!

If they are looking at the same one I am it is on Nikita Borisov's site. Unfortunately, it is several inches too short for me in multiple dimensions.

Adam, according to the Nastol’naya Kniga Sviashchenno-sluzhitelia (at least the Moscow 1983 reprint) the color for the feasts of the Holy Cross is purple or dark red (opposed to bright red which is worn at different times).

Adam,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

The liturgical color from the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross (Sep 14) through the Leave-taking of the Feast (Sep 21) is red.

Byzantine Ruthenians should not substitute purple for red. However, the use of red should be more the "dark red" rather than the bright, "cherry" red.

Hope this helps,
Deacon El

At an area OCA parish this past Sunday, the clergy, altar server, and altar vestments (at least for Divine Liturgy) were in all gold. The vestments of one of the priests though had red embroidered crosses. ...And they were observing the "Elevation" of the Cross.

CIX

Dear Deacon El, I think Adam was asking more about consistency and universality of practice with regard to color for that day. It is apparent that in some regions of Byzantine liturgical practice purple is certainly sanctioned.

Historically in the Byzantine practice color was never a "precise science" but rather "dark" or "bright" colors were prescribed.

I don't recall seeing a written prohibition from any Ruthenian or Ukrainian eparchy forbidding the use of purple for this feast. I have seen purple used on this day in a Greek Catholic parish before.

Monocobyz, is that because it was Sunday also or do they always wear gold on that day? Interesting.

Diak:

I do not know if the gold is "standard issue" or not. I have heard that there are parishes/eparchs that subscribe to the "bright" vs. "dark" attire. It really isn't the specific color that is assigned for a particular day but rather any bright color or any dark color. I was also told that some Russian groups use red as a color of joy. Note that this is red-red, and not the brown-red used by the Ruthenian Church.

...and for everyone of here on the East Coast, especially the mid-Atlantic, may we, with God's grace, all get through the next 48 hours with minimal damage and no loss of life.

The colour that I have seen in many places for this feast is GREEN (Daniil tells me they wear green in Pochaev). This is a contrast to the 3rd sunday of lent which is much more penitential. The Cross on the feast of the Exaltation is stressed as the Life-Creating wood. And what is the colour of life class?

GREEN!

and what colour are trees?

GREEN!

very good!

This feast also has cool ties with basil, the plant found at the place where the cross was burried.

green, I'm telling you, green!

gavshev

Purple, red, green - wow if we were Ethiopian clergy we would have them all covered with one set.

The basil's coming out of our garden this year for the first time! Nothing like the smell of fresh grown basil on the day of the Cross...

Amen to your prayer, Monocobyz. May the intercession of the Theotokos calm the seas and wind.

In the Ruthenian Recension (Galician & Subcarpathian usages), red has always seemed to be the preferred color for feasts of the Holy Cross, particularly the Third Sunday of Lent and the Feast of the Exaltation. It is also prescribed for the weekdays of Great Lent and the Beheading of St. John the Baptist, as well as the vigils of Christmas and Theophany.

Now that having been said, purple has always been an accepted alternative to red, although not nearly as popular. In our usage, there is not a distinction between "festive red" and "penitential red" because we do not have the concept that some other traditions do, of red being a festive color. I would surmise that the latter point is what has led to a preference for purple among the Russians, during Great Lent.

It is true though, that the liturgical books traditionally make a distinction only between dark and bright colored vestments. Particular colors have been an organic development of more recent times. That being said, I have seen in some Church Slavonic typikons of the Ruthenian usage, the use of the word "baranniji" which can translate literally into "brown" but means more precisely, that dark shade of red, closer to a "wine" color, of which some of you may call the "brown-red." In the case I am speaking of, it referred to services for the dead.

In the 1970s, partially in keeping with this directive from the Mykyta typikon, the Ruthenian Metropolia made a particular distinction as to the color of vestments to be used at funerals and liturgies/services for the deceased. The preference then was to move away from black vestments to a darker red that was considered appropriate for both penitential and requiem services. It was noted in particular that the shade of red should be the darker, wine-toned color.

However, to my knowledge, there has never been a distinct prohibition against the use of purple vestments, either for penitential days or for the departed and black vestments (which I do like) are still used during Passion Week and sometimes for requiem services.

It does surprise me in a way, that an OCA parish would wear gold on the Feast of the "Elevation" of the Cross. I say this because it has always perplexed me that in the Russian usage, it is acceptable to wear dark colored vestments (purple usually) on the Sunday of Great Lent. This is a departure from the more traditional model of wearing bright vestments always on Sundays, with the exclusion of only two (which we all know are the Third Sunday of Lent and the Sunday during the postfestive period of the Feast of the Exaltation). The Ruthenians (of both varieties) and I believe most Greeks and Arabs have maintained the older practice of bright vestments even on Lenten Sundays. Now, we are hearing that on one of only two Sundays when red or dark vestments would normally be worn, the OCA is wearing gold, even though they wear dark ones on Lenten Sundays. Go figure? My theory on this one is that perhaps yes, since they consider the Feast of the Exaltation to be a joyous rather than a penitential one, then gold and not purple is used, although for them, red would certainly cover both issues (red is festive to Russians and also appropriate for the Cross). While I believe that some places may indeed use green for this holyday, I have never heard of the practice myself.

In the final analysis, my preference of course is for our own usage which I consider to be rather traditional - bright vestments on all Sundays, except the two and dark (preferably red) when honoring the Holy Cross of Our Lord.

An interesting liturgical query. God bless you all.

Fr. Joe

The Dolnytsky typikon also prescribes red for the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul.

The Greek Patriarchate of Jerusalem vests everyone in green for this Feast.

Clearly a tie-in with the basil, among other things.

Michael