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Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13888
04/17/02 08:48 AM
04/17/02 08:48 AM
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Dear Thomas,

I am not strictly waving the American flag but showing solidarity with the U.S. as an Ally.

There were some posts that attacked the USA, our republican neighbours to the south.

Those attacks were off the topic of this thread, do you not agree?

And I have no need to prove I'm an American, since I'm not.

So . . .

God bless America!

Alex

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13889
04/17/02 09:19 AM
04/17/02 09:19 AM
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Dear Professor Alex:

Quickly, please tell me the truth: I thought all along that long, long ago Canada seceded from the Kingdom and was co-opted by the USA to become the largest state of the Union up north! smile

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13890
04/17/02 11:35 AM
04/17/02 11:35 AM
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There are a number of points I wish to make.

The email Thomas posted was most disturbing, as are the stories found at www.anitwar.com. Equally disturbing are the homicide bomers who go into Israel, proper, and kill inncocent civilians.

Both the Israeli soldiers, and officers if such crimes were instigated through the chain of command and not random acts of violence by "thugs" who are given the title of "soldiers", should be tried for war crimes against humantiy in the newly created international tribunal at the UN. The Palestinian Homicide Bombers should also be tried in the same court for the same crimes, as well as any leaership, including Yassar Arafat, if Palestinian leadership is involved in supporting the terror attacks against innocent Israeli civilians. It is also a crime against humanity, a war crime, to attack any religious building and both Israeli and Palestinian person/groups should be tried for any attack on religious buildings and the people insided them.

They should all be locked up and the key thrown away. They are evil and not to be toleratedd in any manner, whatsoever.

The Bush Doctrine has made it explicitley clear that there will be no one who can be "luke warm" on the issue of terrorism. Either you are for it and support it, or you are against it and you fight it (I agree and support this principle).
If we allow terrorists to succeed in their political agendas through terror, then terrorism will become an accepted way for political bargaining.

Of all the horrible things that Israel has done against the Palestinian people, I see no evidence that it they are preemptive, first strikes in which innocent Palestinians are killed. It seems, if always, that such Israeli action is a response to terror attacks agianst their citizens.
They are copmletely within their rights to defend themselves and invade Palestine in order to capture, kill, and stop terrorism, period!

If they do not have that right, then the USA is unjustified in her war in Afghanistan, which by the way, the Roman Catholic Church publically stated that the USA has the right to conduct. There can be no double standard, in which it is acceptable for one nation to engage militarily with another nation to defend themselves against terrorism and unacceptable for a different nation from doing the same thing.

War is not an excuse for barbaric assault against human beings. From an eschatological viewpoint, war is an unfortunate condition that exists in our fallen world. We must always seek peace, prevent warfare, and create an environment where all of humanity can live in peace and love with their neighbors. Only by surrendering our will to the will of Christ can this be achieved. But war does exist and sometimes human beings have no choice but to fight and kill their fellow man to protect themselves from the same fate. When a human being is faced with this reality, we, as indivduals must examine our conscience and hold to the commandments of our Lord and Saviour.

I fight becasue I love my brethren and will lay down my life for them if need be.

If I have "love for my enemies" and understand what that means, as a soldier, I would not tolerate any abuse, such as the rape, murder and expoitation of another human being whether a soldier, or civilian and would defend them from such abuse. When I engage in battle, although I may be fighting for a cause, or idea, ultimately I am fighting for my life. I defend myself first and in so doing succesfully, I increase the likelyhood of a victory of my cause, or idea. Once the battle is over, I commit grevious sin if I attack enemy soldiers who have surrendered, or innocent civilians. This is the difference between war and terror.

War should be avoided at all costs, because civilians will always suffer.

"Blessed are the peacemakes, for they will be called children of God."

Thomas-

I have a request for you. Tell your freind that he has a duty to report this horrific incident to the western media. There are enough newspapers out there that are pro-Palestinian and who will publish this story, if indeed the story is true.

One of the most saddening realities of this crisis is that people on both sides spread misinformation propaganda.

Unfortunately people do make up such events (and I am not saying that your friend is such a person). Please encourage him to bring this atrocity to the attention of the world community.

Through the intercession of the Servant of God Andrew, grant peace to the middle east and justice for all of God's creation.

In Christ,

ALity

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13891
04/17/02 01:15 PM
04/17/02 01:15 PM
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Dear Amado,

Then you thought wrong, Amado Amigo! smile

Canada is an independent constitutional monarchy whose Head of State is Queen Elizabeth the Second the Queen of Canada.

The Queen is Head of State of 15 other countries as well as being Head of the Commonwealth of over 50 nations.

The Queen is not only Queen of Canada, but Queen of each of the ten provinces as well that are co-sovereign.

Canada is an Ally of the U.S. too.

And how does this relate to the current crisis under review?

I have always felt that the idea of sharing the same Head of State with other countries and cultures, such as Jamaica, New Zealand, the United Kingdom etc. is a very civilizing witness to the brotherhood of humankind.

And we need more of that in this day and age, would you say?

We have American influences, to be sure, it would be impossible not to.

But Canada was founded by the United Empire Loyalists, Americans of various cultural backgrounds who remained loyal to the Crown following the American Revolution.

After watching the close, cordial relations betwen President Bush and Tony Blair of the U.K., I thought you guys were going to come back . . .
smile

I would also like to see a King in Mexico and, as the Spanish King has in his coat of arms, "Plus Ultra" or "more beyond" referring to the former Spanish colonies in Latin America.

Also, your Grand Republic has helped bring back the King of Afghanistan!

Good for you - a very wise move!

And God save the King of Afghanistan! May his rule bring peace and prosperity to his beleaguered people and nation.

Alex

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13892
04/17/02 01:29 PM
04/17/02 01:29 PM
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White Plains, New York, United...
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Is it clear that the King of Afghanistan is going back with the idea of restoring a monarchy, constitutional or otherwise? Or is he just seen as a national leader and symbol capable of helping restore the nation?

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13893
04/17/02 01:49 PM
04/17/02 01:49 PM
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Dear Catholicos,

The King of Afghanistan will be a constitutional monarch, a symbol of his tattered nation's former historical heritage and he will chair a kind of parliament of the tribal chiefs of Afghanistan in June of this year.

I understand that many Afghan guerrillas and soldiers who were members of the Royal Afghan Army still have their uniforms and many have already donned them in anticipation of His Majesty's return.

Long live the King!

Alex

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13894
04/17/02 03:13 PM
04/17/02 03:13 PM
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Dear Professor:

Re the Spanish King's heraldic "Plus Ultra," do you think it includes or should include the Philippines, a former colony (almost 400 years!) in Asia?

After all, our country was named after Spain's king in 1500's and we became Roman Catholic because of those Spaniard (and Portuguese) explorers and navigators and, of course how could I forget, the accompanying Frailes!

Or, shall we just call ourselves Latin Asians or, more accurately, Hispanic Asians to qualify as "monarchists"? confused

Viva la Espana! Viva las Islas de Filipinas!! biggrin

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13895
04/17/02 03:41 PM
04/17/02 03:41 PM
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Dear Amado,

Since I'm already in trouble with Cantor Joe over the Carpatho-Rusyn and Kyivan Church issue, I might as well go ahead with this too smile .

Personally, I think that there would be nothing wrong with the Philippines having the King of Spain as their Constitutional Monarch, not as their colonial master.

Again, their is much to commend that, but I've drawn enough fire from the Tridentine and Carpatho-Rusyn quarters for one day already.

I'll lie low for a while until it's all past . . .

Long live the King of Spain!

Alex

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13896
04/17/02 06:18 PM
04/17/02 06:18 PM
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Belton, Texas
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Ality,

Your wrote: "Both the Israeli soldiers, and officers if such crimes were instigated through the chain of command and not random acts of violence by "thugs" who are given the title of "soldiers", should be tried for war crimes against humantiy in the newly created international tribunal at the UN. The Palestinian Homicide Bombers should also be tried in the same court for the same crimes, as well as any leaership, including Yassar Arafat, if Palestinian leadership is involved in supporting the terror attacks against innocent Israeli civilians. It is also a crime against humanity, a war crime, to attack any religious building and both Israeli and Palestinian person/groups should be tried for any attack on religious buildings and the people insided them."


We are both in total agreement. War Crimes should be prosecuted on all sides, when the crime is noted. It does not matter who has committed the War Crime.


The additional reason for my posting this topic and my two subsequent postings were to let the Byzantine Christian Community know that Christians in the Holy Land of Palestine are being specifically targetted. Christian Churches, Schools, and homes are being targeted by the Israeli Defense Forces despite that fact that there is no Palestinian Christian connection among any of the terrorist activities.

Thugs who are not being controlled by their military superiors , and perhaps superiors who are allowing things to happen are hurting innocents. This is a critical time in the life of the Palestinian Christians, their very existence in Palestine and the holy land is threatened originally by the Moslems who stated that the Palestinian Christians would be punished for not being fully involved in the Jihaad and the intifada and now by the Isreali forces who seem to have pinpointed the Middle Class Palestinian Christian Community for pillage and possible harrassment to get them out of the Holy Land.

As evidenced by the United States news media, very little information on the Palestinian Christian's plight is reaching the US. There is fear among the Arab Christian community that our Melikite and Antiochian Ortodox Churches are already being assaulted by american hate-mongers because of the Arab connection.

It is interesting to note , Ality, that articles in the international press (that I shared in my third forum note above) seem to indicate a very concerted prosecution of the Palestinian Christian Community and Churches by the Israeli Defense force---but we hear nothing of this in the US media. I hope that Anthony's plight and that of his family do reach US and International ears but I fear that for his sister and his family it will be too late. (With the righteous O Lord Give Rest to thy Servant who has fallen asleep the husband of Anthony's sister and her miscarried child). I hope that Sr. Maria Stephanopuolis and those sisters with her are protected by the mantle of The Mother of God and that the elder's Nursing home is kept safe and suppliued with food until this incident is over. I pray that the Palestinian Christian people may celebrate the Holy Pascha on May 5 in Peace at the Church of the Holy Sepluchre, the Church of the Holy Nativity, and other Christian Churches in Palestine and Jerusalem withgout the fear of being shot.

What can we do but pray and try to educate the American people of the Plight of the innocent Palestinian People (those who are not terrorists) be they Christian or Moslem. Lord have mercy upon us sinners.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13897
04/18/02 07:55 AM
04/18/02 07:55 AM
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Dear Thomas,

Do you not feel that the U.S. government knows full well what is going on in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, whether or not CNN chooses to report on it?

And would you not agree that that knowledge matters not one iota respecting the overall aims of U.S. foreign policy objectives with respect to that area?

What else is left to do except wave the flag?

Alex

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13898
04/18/02 09:45 AM
04/18/02 09:45 AM
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Islam Today by Charles Eaton: English Muslim.

Understanding the contemporary Palestinian Muslim.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sufisminislam/message/1199

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13899
04/21/02 08:38 AM
04/21/02 08:38 AM
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A Drop of Sanity in a Sea of Insanity.

E-mail message

From: info@harunyahya.com (HARUN YAHYA REVIEW) Date: Sun, Apr 21, 2002, 9:56am (EDT+6)  
 
A MUSLIM CALL TO THE ISRAELIS

Harun Yahya
 
   These days the Middle East is once again the scene of fighting between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Radicals on both sides are employing the most ruthless and cruel methods against each other. The Israeli Army is ruthlessly bombing Palestinian settlements, shooting at children and trying to make Palestine uninhabitable. Palestinian radicals, on the other hand, are attacking Israeli civilian targets and spreading violence with their terrible suicide attacks aimed at women and children.

   Our heartfelt wish as Muslims is for the anger and hatred on both sides to die down, for the bloodshed to stop and for peace to come to the Middle East. We oppose both the Israeli killing of the innocent and the Palestinian bombing of innocent Israelis.

   In our view, the most important condition for this blind conflict to come to an end and for real peace to be established in the Middle East is for both sides to genuinely and honestly understand and implement their own beliefs. The conflict between Israel and Palestine has taken on the identity of a 'religious war' between Jews and Muslims, whereas in fact there is absolutely no reason for such a war of religion. Both Jews and Muslims believe in God, love and respect the same prophets, and possess the same moral principles. They are not enemies. On the contrary, they are allies in a world in which atheism and hatred of religion are widespread.
   Based on that fundamental principle, we call on the Israelis (and all Jews):

   1) Muslims and Jews believe in one God, the creator of the universe and all living things. We are all God's servants, and to Him we shall return. So why hate each other? The holy books we believe in are different, but we all abide by those books because we believe they are the revelations of God. So why should we fight one another?

   2) Instead of Muslims, would the Israelis rather live among atheists or pagans? The Bible is full of passages describing the terrible cruelties inflicted on the Jews by pagans. The terrible genocide and cruelty inflicted on the Jews by atheists and unbelievers (such as the Nazis, anti-Semitic racists or communist regimes such as Stalin's Russia) are clear for all to see. The atheist forces in question hated the Jews because they believed in God, and that is why they oppressed them. Are not Jews and Muslims on the same side against these atheist, communist or racist forces that hate them both?

   3) Muslims and Jews love and respect the same prophets. The prophets Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Moses or David are at least as important for Muslims as they are for Jews. The lands where these holy figures lived and served God are at least as holy for Muslims as they are for Jews. So why drown those lands in blood and tears?

   4) The fundamental values of Israel are also sacred to us Muslims. The word 'Israel' is the name of the Prophet Jacob, who is praised in the Koran and remembered with great respect by Muslims. The Magen David (Star of David) is the holy symbol of the prophet David for us too. According to the Koran, synagogues are places of worship that Muslims must protect. (Koran, 22:40). So why should members of the two religions not live together in peace?

   5) The Torah commands Jews to establish peace and security, not to occupy other lands and spill blood. The people of Israel are described as 'a light unto the nations.' As Rabbi Dovi Weiss has said:

   "The Jewish people are commanded by Almighty God to live in peace with all peoples and nations on the face of the globe. Our agenda is simple It is to humbly worship the Creator at all times. As Torah Jews we are called upon to feel and express our sense of compassion when any person or group of human beings suffers."*

   If the Israelis continue to treat the Palestinians as they are now, they may be unable to account for that to God. Those Palestinians who kill innocent Israelis, on the other hand, may be unable to account for those murders. Is it not a duty in the eyes of God to put an end to the fighting, which is dragging both sides deeper into satanic violence?

   We invite all Jews to consider these facts. God commands us Muslims to invite Jews and Christians to a 'common formula:'
   Say, "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." (Koran, 3:64)

   This is our call to the Jews, a People of the Book: As people who believe in God and obey His commands, let us come together in the common formula of 'faith.' Let us love God, the Lord and Creator of all of us. Let us abide by His commands. Let us pray to God to lead us further on the path of righteousness. Let us bring love, compassion and peace to each other and the world, not hostility, blood and tears.
   That is where the solution to the Palestinian question and other conflicts in the world lies. Come, let us find a solution together. The deaths and suffering of so many innocent people remind us every day what an urgent task this is.

   HOW CAN THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION BE RESOLVED?
   Based on the principles of toleration and moderation we have outlined above, it is possible to solve the Palestinian question, which has caused so much bloodshed in the Middle East over the last 50 years.

In our view, the establishment of peace depends on these two conditions:

   1) Israel must withdraw from all the territories it occupied during the 1967 war. The occupation that has existed since must come to an end. That is an obligation under international law, U.N. Security Council resolutions and the concept of justice. All of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip must be recognized as belonging to an independent State of Palestine.
   2) Jerusalem must be administered by an international commission attached to the United Nations. That commission must have equal numbers of Muslim, Christian and Jewish members.
This holy city is a 'religious center' of the utmost importance to all three religions. That is why Jerusalem can never be the capital of any political entity. All Jews, Muslims or Christians may regard Jerusalem as their own spiritual capital, but it is wrong to claim it as a political capital. Jerusalem must be demilitarized and made a free city in which members of all three religions can carry out their obligations in peace.

   When these conditions are brought about, Israelis and Palestinians will have recognized each others' right to exist, shared the Palestinian lands, and resolved the status of Jerusalem, the subject of a great argument, in a manner satisfactory to the members of all three religions.

* "The Torah Demands Justice for the Palestinians" Presented by Rabbi Dovid Weiss of NKIAt Time Square in Manhattan on Friday afternoon, June 1, 2001. http://www.netureikarta.org/speeches.htm
 
This newsletter is published to present the readers a perspective based on the values and morality of the Qur'an. The articles refer to the www.harunyahya.com website, which gives free access to all the books, articles and other works of Harun Yahya, a prominent Turkish Muslim intellectual. Suggestions and feedback are welcome at info@harunyahya.com.
If you would prefer not to receive further messages, please send a blank message to unsubscribe@harunyahya.com

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13900
04/21/02 07:27 PM
04/21/02 07:27 PM
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Abdur,

You show more wisdom than most people I have met.

There will not be peace in the Middle East until the hate stops.

When that will be - I have no idea.

Personally, I'm just as worried about the future of Latin America, which you and I have discussed on another thread.

Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13901
04/25/02 04:48 AM
04/25/02 04:48 AM
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Brother Thomas,
I applaud your efforts to get the message of our suffering Christian brothers and sisters in Palestine known. You demonstrated in practice the Christian principle of supporting the poor and suffering as Christ commands us. I can only pray that our sinful world could be inhabited by more people like you.

In saying that however I must say that I strongly disagree with your accepting the pretense of Ality that this is somehow a “both sides are wrong type of issue.”

The Palestinian people, both Muslims as well as our beloved Orthodox Christians, are an oppressed people courageously fighting for their liberation and their survival. It is horrible and sad that innocent people are killed. But to turn that into a "both sides are wrong' (both the occupier and the occupied) argument traps us firmly in the context neatly framed by CNN, NBC and other outlets of useless propaganda and journalistic inability. This is how the right-wing pundits frame the issue so that it becomes one of “innocent Israeli civilians killed” instead of innocent Palestinians' homes bombed, bulldozed and lands occupied. The Palestinians are up against the most incredible odds. Israel is a nuclear power. It enjoys the firm and consistent support of the U.S. who has in all its billions of dollars in military aid ensured that Israel maintains its militaristic might.
Let us all acknowledge that there is a BIG difference between the nationalism of the oppressor (Israelis) and the nationalism of the oppressed (Palestinians). The former is racist and repressive the latter is that employed by everyone, from George Washington to Patrice Lumumba, the world over fighting for their freedom and self-determination.

What is all the focus on the “occupied territories” referring to the 1967 borders? All of Israel is occupied territory including the lands stolen in 1948. Israel IS occupied territory. We do not need to prove our case with a list of atrocities; such as how many Palestinian children were murdered, how many times Israeli solders forced Palestinians to drink urine, etc. That is not what needs to be emphasized. The state of Israel itself is an illegitimate thug state. This is not about “bad apples” in the Israeli Army. Israel is a racist settler colonial state with white people from Europe (European Jews, with some “Jews of Color” who are also discriminated against) occupying the land of non-white people (Arabs). The same as happened in America, Southern Africa and Australia. It is as simple as that! There can be no justice or peace on stolen land—any army or governments that stand on stolen land are thieves and therefore thugs.

I have a question for people that are so die hard and quick to defend Israel. Where did they stand on Apartheid South Africa? Being a similar type of state and society as old South Africa many of the arguments used to defend Israel one can find in history books as being the types of arguments used to defend the apartheid state. If those arguments were dismissed for the utter absurdity that they implied for in the case of South Africa, then why are they allowed to take hold for Israel?


Finally,

Seeing all of the “leave my country” and “God bless America” in response to criticism comments that have been posted on this form, I deem it necessary to state that as an African American, I do not feel I need to make any “I am proud to be American” qualifications attached to this statement. I harbor no complexes or insecurities that someone may question my “Americaness.” My people were in this country before it was called the United States of America. We fought in the American Revolution, the Civil War and all wars in between and subsequent. I don't think anyone is in a position to be telling us to fit ourselves into a patriotic pigeonhole. We were not granted the right to free speech; we fought for it and seized it in our Civil Rights movement. I say what ever I want to say and dare some one to try and stop me.

May God be with you all and have mercy on us.

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: Palestinian Christians Crying for Help #13902
04/25/02 04:52 AM
04/25/02 04:52 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by aRomanCatholicGuy:
What this all boils down to is that Islam is Evil. Islam is like a cancer across the land and whenever it takes root there is violence. For example, Pakistan, Afghastan, Sudan etc...

I do not blame the Pal. people because they do not know our Lord. It grives my heart to know the Pal. Christians are caught up in this conflict.


Excuse me? I am I reading what I saw correctly? Did some self righteous Roman Catholic just judge Islam to be evil? Do you need to be reminded of the inquisition? Native American genocide and African Slavery which Vatican Popes have condoned (which the Vatican Pope is still apologizing for). Colonialism? My church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has suffered many times due to the violent and EVIL intrusions of the Vatican over the centuries. In 1935 Pope Pious the 11th blessed the army of Mussolini while marching in Rome in order to attack Ethiopia. I could go on but it is useless. Differences we have should be kept on the level of theological discussion and debate. As an Orthodox I do not acknowledge Judaism or Islam, nor do I agree with Catholicism or Protestantism for that matter. That does not mean that I have to call them evil or oppose them on grounds that are not theological. Representatives from each of these religions have at one time or another committed the most unspeakable evil atrocities in their history. We should not be so judgmental. “Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone.” Keep differences theological and respect people otherwise. God Be with you.


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
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