A general question. Since Pedophilia seems virtually "uncurable" as a moral perversion some have suggested that the proper punishment for pedophiles would be execution. That's not a bad idea, except I'm not in favor of executions. But it does seem to me that life imprisonment is a proper punishment for pedophilia. What say you?

Dan Lauffer

Pedophile Island and a *****-ectomy.My daughter thinks we should take all their useable organs and use them for transplant donations.


Nicky's Baba

"My daughter thinks we should take all their useable organs and use them for transplant donations."

While they are still alive?

If either of my sons had experienced such debauchery there might have been two people going to hell. The Pedophile for what he did to my son and me for what I would have done to the pedophile. His office would not have saved him.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan,

Isn't the Christian thing to do to forgive sins?
To tell the sinner to "go and sin no more"?
To turn the other cheek?
To turn the other cheeks?
To turn the others' cheeks?

I'm a lousy Christian. I don't believe in turning other people's cheeks when they are attacked. Especially when children are attacked.

Our society does not seem to be able to provide adequate food, clothing, shelter, and medicine to the poor, the disabled, the mentally ill (not harmful to others), not to mention those just temporarily down on their luck due to loss of their jobs.

Can it be moral to provide perpetual food, clothing, shelter, medicine, and access to the law library to the incorrigible Dirtballs while innocent children are denied?

I know that some people do stupid things once in their lives. I know the legal system screws up and convicts the innocent sometimes. But some Dirtballs have just chosen to behave in evil ways.

For those who are incorrigible, I have big problems with perpetual care. If they can never be trusted again, why bother?

Maybe we should just fence off some territory and drop all the criminals into it and let them live with each other as long as they can, away from us and without our attention.

I am a baseball fan --- three strikes, you're hanged.

John

Glory to Jesus Christ!

This issue unfortunately is being used as a springboard for pseudo-catholic groups within the Latin Church at this time to "reform" the Church. The sad reality is that this great evil has existed in the Church probably since the beginning.

The Holy Spirit is going to do some Spring Cleaning; it's His Work, we need to trust in Him.

In regard to pedophile priests: their punishment is up to the civil courts and the church tribunals. We must pray for the salvation of their/our souls as we would any other sinner, but at the same time we must work to support the priests that are striving to maintain their commitment to Christ in their Vocation and at the same time enduring a kind of pariah status from American society.

We must also seek the healing of the victims who must be experiencing enestimable suffering.

May Christ our true God who rose from the dead raise them from their feeling of death and alienation. With His most precious and Life-Creating Spirit may Christ heal their memories and bring reconciation and restoration to their souls and bodies. May they feel His Love which can never abuse us and never causes us pain. May He do all these things for He is gracious and He Loves Mankind. Amen.

A prayer for those in holy orders:

Jesus, Head of the Church, we pray for those who are joined to You in a mysterious way by Holy Orders; may they ever be faithful to the promises they have made and be strong in You and in the power of Your might. We glorify You Most Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit Now and Ever and Forever. Amen.

In Christ,


Rob

If their punishment is up to the courts, then justice demands that no one -- even bishops and Cardinals -- obstruct the administration of justice. I think this is the principal issue the faithful are troubled by.

Axios

Axios,

We agree on this issue. Some people are concerned that prison may be too harsh a sentence given that child molestors are often abused or even murdered while in prison. I disagree. I'm willing to feed them and give them access to a library. Let the abuse they may suffer be their penance.

Dan Lauffer

BTW I agree that decent priests need and deserve our strong and open support, without a doubt. They are facing the brunt of the evil committed by some of their fellow priests. They don't need our recriminations besides. Why not have some special days of appreciation offered for our priests. Let's privately reassure them of our support and let us publicly back them up.

Yikes.

Where is the mercy?

"Shoot 'em all, let God sort 'em out!"

Doesn't it say somewhere that by the measure by which we judge, we shall be judged.

It's really hard to urge mercy and actively work for the conversion of sinners who committ such henious crimes.

But, if we can't do it for love of God, won't enlightened self interest lead us to it?

Steve

Dear Friends,

A little girl named Holly was brutally murdered and dismembered two months ago and someone has been arrested in the case.

Police made public the fact that there are more than 200 released pedophiles in the immediate area of her former home - it's becoming quite an issue.

But I wonder why we would want to impose harsher penalties on priests than on others for this crime/sickness?

Ultimately, however, this whole thread is on the wrong topic.

The real topic is the bishops' responsibility to protect their faithful and how they deliberately failed to live up to that responsibility.

Another topic is accountability in the Church.

Personally, I don't see how either issue is being properly managed at the current time, pious platitudes and apologies notwithstanding.

Those are the real issues here, not executions of priests with this illness.

Alex

It's a horribly difficult question - and we aren't exactly dealing well with it.

Punishment is indeed a matter for the courts to decide. Prevention is a horse of a slightly different color.

Once a man (and it is usually men) has served his sentence, he is re-released into the community. In Ohio, offenders labelled "sexual predators" must register with the authorities wherever they live, for the rest of their lives. With a disorder like pedophilia, I think this makes sense. What I'm not entirely sure about are the various local laws which restrict sexual offenders from living within ______ (number of feet) of _________ (schools, churches, day care centers, whatever). On the face of it it makes some sense, but in actuality, it often means that ex-offenders simply cannot obtain housing.

As a civil libertarian I am very uneasy with ideas such as lifetime monitoring, but as a parent and citizen aware of the lifetime compulsion pedophiles are said to feel, I'm not sure if some sort of monitoring isn't necessary here.

A critical need is also to STOP THE CYCLE. Sure, there will always be some folks with disordered thoughts and desires, but if we as a society really decide to support and value children & families and prevent abuse & neglect (sounds easy, doesn't it??) mebbe the NEXT generation of pedophiles will be smaller.

I dunno.


Sharon

This is truly a very difficult situation with no easy fix. The bishops have to be accountable. But like Sharon I am generally libertarian and don't like the idea of new sui generis laws targeted at religious institutions. Child abuse civil laws exist in some form in every state in the USA. More laws aren't necessarily the answer.

More bishops taking the initiative to voluntarily ferret these sick men out of ministry, seminaries, monasteries, etc. etc. would be a great start and a visible sign of the good will of the hierarchy in preventing further problems.

Just or not, the most painful earthly retribution will probably be in the bank accounts of the dioceses either settling or litigating these cases.

This takes a lot of guts to discuss on a public forum, but here goes. I was a victim of sexual abuse by a cleric. I know the hell that one goes through after that sort of thing. My therapist and I often discuss what I would like to see happen and my feelings of anger and disgust over both the specific acts I endured and also the hierarchy's response to those of us who have been through this hell and their protection of the perpetrators. I find myself becoming increasingly anti-clerical and struggle against that. My therapist and I have also talked about what I would like to see done to my abuser and to those bishops who have shielded and protected him over the years. I don't want to see him killed, we have no right to take another person's life, that is in God's very capable hands. I do want him removed from society and I want him to know some of the hell that his acts have put both myself and numerous other people through. He needs to pay the price for his actions in some way in the here and now, as I am sure he will have to pay in the next life. As for the bishops...they need to share some of the blame for what happened. I recenly learned that in at least one of the dioceses this man served in prior to my experience, his behavior was reported to the local ordinary. Nothing was done except allow him to move to another diocese. When it happened to me and another novice at the community I had entered right from high school, this other novice and I went to the bishop and told him everything. Nothing was done. He later moved to another diocese and then to yet another one. My life was changed forever and I will always carry these wounds in my heart and soul. May God have mercy on us all...the suffering and those who inflicted our wounds alike. Don

Don, may God bless and heal you. And ultimately, justice will be served by the Just Judge.

Don,

I second Diak's prayer. I do believe bishops have much to answer for on the day of judgment along with the abusers themselves. There is no excuse for how the Church has allowed this evil to continue. I pray that every child that is ever abused by anyone, be they priest or anyone else, will have someone to protect them. I pray that the someone will report the abusers to the police and that abusers will be jailed for life. If they are priests let them carry out their duties behind bars. Their penance will doubtless be that they will experience the shame and abuse that other more powerful men will bring against them while they are still alive.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Brethren,

I pray for the healing of all who have been victims.

The civil society will do or not do according to its whims. We know "the world's" response to abortion, sodomy etc. Just legalize it and the problem goes away.

However, the Church has sacred canons that reflect her timeless wisdom. In these canons it is clear that such crimes are to be met with:

1. Permanent deposition of the cleric from all clerical duties and responsibilities. The cleric is usually not excommunicated for the first offense, but is most definitely laicized.

2. The lay perpetrator suffers a period of excommunication which could be up to 20 years for each offense and is expected to engage in penitential disciplines that could include compensation (however inadequate that would ultimately be) to the victim. Penitents may have their period of excommunication lessened when it is clear to the presiding bishop that the repentance has taken root and born fruit in the perpetrator's heart.

When the bishop is part of the conspiracy of silence, just pray to God, for our God is a God of loving mercy, but also a God of terrible justice.


With love in Christ,
Andrew

Well this discussion did not start out talking about abusive clergy. But what Don from Kansas suffered is very difficult. My heart reaches out to you Don. But, healing can and does take place.

I was abused by protestant clergy, you aren't hearing anything about the thousands upon thousands of children abused by them and the many thousands of clergy doing it. It just infuriates me when we have maybe 1% of our clergy which has done this, and of course just one is one too many, continuoulsy chased after, when protestants get off free. And those priest that have done it are and were homosexuals or pedifiles who should never have been here, but were allowed in by liberal minded seminaries to start with.

I am healed and whole, it is forgiveness on our part that allows us to be set free. I am not just talking just about myself, but also of other children who were abused by their protestant ministers that I personally know. That is the way healing comes, and that is the way it came for all of us that I know have been abused. The memories may linger but are less vivid and decress in the times that they surface, but the pain leaves.

I would offer to anyone who is suffering from sexual abuse to, at the moment of elevation of the Eucharist, offer your pain and torment to Jesus. Tell the thoughts and pain to leave or you will do it continuoulsy at the elevation until it does. This may sound odd, but you will find releif and be able to forgive. I did. Persevere!

Also, I agree with Nicky's Baba. For those who continually act upon the desire and problem, have the courts order removal of the part that enables them to perform the abuse. Then their suffering will be complete. God forgive me! Maybe through it they can repent and be brought to conversion through the only Ture Love and completely fulfilling love they will ever know, Jesus Christ.

Then, the important part of this type of suffering is to allow God to use you to help in the healing of others. Don't be afraid or ashamed because they need to hear about Jesus.

Here is a pretty balanced article on the subject
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/040602/rel_040602027.shtml

This is full of information. The last few lines are directly about Baptists. I was one.
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/040602/rel_040602027.shtml

Oh, Most Holy Theotokos save us!

Forgive my rantings,
Rose

Don:

I'll commit to praying for your healing in God's good time. He has sent a therapist across your pilgrim path and I pray that through the Grace of God, this person, and your own prayers and struggle that you will some day be healed. Scarred, yes, but I will continue to pray for your complete healing.

Rose:

I will also continue to pray for your pain to be lessened by God's Grace and those who support you in your own pilgrim journey.

I had a neighbor whose son was raped by another, older boy when he was twelve years old. I learned this sad tale after I had been a friend to this young man over about eleven years. We had shared an interest in refinishing antique furniture and often traded advice and techniques. One evening when we were talking he warned me about this other person--now a man--since my own son was at that time approaching his twelfth birthday. I was stunned and have remained open to listening to his pain. He hasn't yet been able to deal with this issue with a therapist and is in need of our prayers--as are so many others whom God alone knows are out there and have yet to deal with their own pain. He has also never been able to form a lasting intimate relationship with anyone and he is now forty years of age. Apparently this is not uncommon, since I read of a similar story in the newspaper this morning related by a man in his sixties who has the same trauma in his past.

I cannot understand abusing a child. I see children as gifts of God Himself who are given to us to nurture, protect, encourage, and love. I guess I'm an old softy but I will never get over the sadness at just seeing a child cry because he/she is in pain--skinned knee or whatever. And this is so much more devastating. The psychological and emotional scars can be much deeper and more long lasting.

I believe that the approach, however, has to be broader than just a focus on fighting this single manifestation of our culture's sexual problems. We have had almost two generations of a "let it all hang out" and "anything goes" approach to the great gift of sexuality. I just read an article that quoted our Secretary of State, Colin Powell, encouraging young people on MTV to ignore parental and religious taboos concerning their sexuality and its expression. And this seems to be so common among those in the media, government, and other high profile positions in our societies. Do anything you want with whomever you want and just be safe about it.

It seems to me that we need to address pornography and all the other expressions of sexual perversion that demean people--women, children, young people. We need to get into our churches and express our theology that human beings are special, lifted up by the Incarnation, and not just a bunch of animals driven by the basest of instincts. We need to learn to treat each other with respect, though that is something that is often ignored in the slide of our western culture into a neo-pagan atmosphere.

The Church was born into this type of world and we seem to be returning to the same atmosphere. We need strong leadership and we ought not to expect all of it to come from our clergy. We must learn what we are about, what it is we believe, and then not be afraid to speak and act it. Each of us can leaven the environment that we live and work in. My children know that when they return from university that there are still words and expressions that they may have become used to but that are still not tolerated in the old man's house. I will tell you, too, that I am not afraid to tell people in the workplace that off-color jokes and stories are not something I find amusing and I usually ask that people refrain from sharing with me. It might be a little tense at first, but people need to know who and what I am. Do I get scarred by this type of behavior? Sure thing! Do I let it bother me? Not much! Jesus took the scourges and didn't open His Mouth. Look to Him and His suffering. And do as Rose suggests--offer it to the Father with His Son at the Liturgy where we get the strength to be the different people we are called to be.

I commit to you who are in pain that I will add an intercession to the daily intercession I use for you and all those who suffer and have suffered.

May the Lord heal in you that which is infirm and broken.

BOB

I know persons, like Don, gripped by pain caused by abuse of trust and mystery entrusted by God for the service for others. It seems to me that I can only stand silently by and witness love by my presence and prayers for those abused.

Yet, I know some of those called to service in the Church who are accused of abusing trust and grace entrusted to them by God. It seems to me that I can only stand silently and witness love by my presence and prayers for the abusers.

The horror and the challenge is that they are all my brothers and sisters and even some of them spiritual fathers and mothers.

This is a situation full of deep sorrow and anguish. Action must be taken. We can express our outrage and urge punishments. The human tragedy is overwhelming and calls out for remedy.

The state must do what it can to protect our young and others who are victims of abuse. The authorities in the Churches and other institutions must cooperate in that effort. We must struggle to find a way to bring healing.

I join you all in prayer for all of them and for all of us.

Steve

Dear Theophan and others,

Thanks, I hope I didn't give the wrong impression.

I truly feel for Dons hurt, and I will continue praying for him and others. An especially for cradle Catholics, it must even be more difficult. I think it is especially hard for us in the Church because we have placed our priest on pedistals and we never expect them to fall. We are truly blessed with so many very wonderful men of God who give their lives totally to God, just for us! What a blessing, it is mind boggleing. There are only a few who have tried to rot the whole basket.

God has truly been able to set me free from it, so I am not suffering. I just get upset with everything hitting our Catholic faith, and our Protestant brothern skating by as if nothing ever happens to them.

The Catholic Church is under attack!

The world does not want to see it as it is, it stands unchangeable for the truths of Christ. I can't help but believe this is just one more way, kind of like the pro-death movement that underminds this country, that the Church is being underminded.

The apparitions of LaSalette France are interesting in regards to this matter.

God bless you all and Don my heart goes out to you and all who are suffering the mistreatment of man! Thank you so much for persevering. You are not only fighting a battle of the flesh, but you are fighting a battle against the darkness of this world.

Rose