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#169876 11/25/04 08:32 AM
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For those who would wish to discuss the situation here I've started a new thread .

I really do not know enough about the political situation to do so.

All I know is what I have gathered from newspaper accounts
- that it is extremely complicated
- that by all accounts only one party thinks the voting was fair
- that the actual polling system was grossly flawed in some areaas
- that the people themselves seem to be divided.

What has really struck me most forcibly is the behaviour of the people in Independence Square - they are there - largely peacefully.

There is a Webcam showing the Square

http://webcam.inter.ua/ru/640x480.html

it can really only be used by someone with an on at all hours connection [ it takes too long to load for a dial up , pay by the minute connection - can take almost half an hour to load ] but it gives a good idea of the number of folk there - and remember that some will have been there since Saturday .

Anhelyna

#169877 11/25/04 01:54 PM
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Anhelyna,
I don't know too much of the details, but this situation seems to have started back when our own elections here were going on. Apparently there were some riots in the beginning and many were hurt. At the time I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine, and I have been surprised that there hasn't been more about it on the forum, unless I've been missing it?

Vie

#169878 11/25/04 02:00 PM
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Victor Yanukovich:

Claims to have won election. The whole world knows it was won by using fraud. He wants to help reconstitute the Soviet Union. President Putin of Russia (the former KGB agent) seems to think this is o.k. and HAS ALREADY SENT RUSSIAN TROOPS TO UKRAINE. THEY ARE WEARING UKRAINIAN UNIFORMS AND HAVE NO DOCUMENTS ON THEM. THEY WILL HELP WITH THE COUP D'ETAT.


Victor Yustchenko:

All exit polls and 5000 foreign election observers believe that he is the winner (by wide margin) of the election. He wants to make Ukraine a European, democratic nation and not a corrupt province of the Russian Empire.


20,000 PEOPLE MARCHED IN THE STREETS OF UZHOROD IN SUPPORT OF VICTOR YUSTCHENKO (ORANGE COLOR). 15,000 STUDENTS IN ZAKARPATTIA ARE TAKING PART IN A GENERAL NATIONAL STRIKE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ETHNICITY - IT'S ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

PRAY FOR DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE !

PRAY FOR VICTOR YUSTCHENKO AND HIS 'OUR UKRAINE PARTY'

BETTER YET - ORGANIZE A PRO-YUSTCHENKO RALLY IN PITTSBURG OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

Here is a picture of the 20,000 people rallying for Yustchenko today in Uzhorod, the seat of the Greek Catholic Church in Zakarpattia.

Pro-Yustchenko (reform candidate) rally today in Uzhorod, Zakarpattia - Ukraine

There is some additional information about daily activities in English on:

MAIDAN.ORG.UA
(Note: see limited selection of articles in English)

BRAMA NEWS

UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Note: bishops are urging all greek catholics - including those in Pittsburg to demonstrate in solidarity with the people of good will in Ukraine)


PRAY FOR DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE

PRAY FOR VICTOR YUSTCHENKO

#169879 11/25/04 02:40 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Ladyhawke1017:
Anhelyna,
I don't know too much of the details, but this situation seems to have started back when our own elections here were going on. Apparently there were some riots in the beginning and many were hurt. At the time I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine, and I have been surprised that there hasn't been more about it on the forum, unless I've been missing it?

Vie
It has only come up in the Prayer thread till now . I think there is a lot we do not know about it .

In some areas this last round of Voting was probably done by the book - but in others I fear [ and hear ] it was a case of Vote and then catch the blue bus to vote again elsewhere. There are even accusations of ink that became invisible !!

I don't think we will ever really know what has gone on.

Anhelyna

#169880 11/25/04 04:12 PM
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The follwoing was just received from the UGCC in Ukraine:

At the initiative of the Christian Churches of Ukraine – Friday, 26 November 2004 has been proclaimed a Day of Common Fasting and Prayer for a better future for Ukraine.

I call all those, who are not indifferent to the future of Ukraine, to fast this day and at 18:00 Kyiv time (16:00 Greenwich) to join together in the common prayer “Our Father” for a better future for Ukraine, which will be prayed at that time in the central square of Ukraine, Independence Square in Kyiv.

Organizational Committee of the representatives of Christian Churches of Ukraine

#169881 11/25/04 04:33 PM
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Father Michael ,

Bless

Thank you for bringing this to our attention


Anhelyna

#169882 11/25/04 04:45 PM
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Just under the surface of the political melee in Ukraine I suspect a definit split of Western (UGCC) and Eastern (UOC-MP)as well. But this is just my opinion.

JoeS cool

#169883 11/25/04 05:12 PM
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From the UGCC Website

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/press-releases/article;1119/

Divine Liturgy Is being Served in the Square for those who are there

#169884 11/25/04 06:46 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
Just under the surface of the political melee in Ukraine I suspect a definit split of Western (UGCC) and Eastern (UOC-MP)as well. But this is just my opinion.

JoeS cool
I have been asked to post this response to you by my source of information

Dear Joe,

I was in Ukraine as an observer this past weekend and I'm in frequent contact with people in Kyiv with links across the country. To put it bluntly - you are wrong.

From the UGCC perspective... Yuschenko carried 17 oblast - the UGCC is the majority Church in much less than half of the area. The UGCC also had the moral high ground during the campaign by only backing people doing their duty and voting, but not backing any one candidate.

The OUC-KP hasn't been as clear, at one point stating they will support whoever supports them. But in general, they stayed out of things.

The UOC-MP acted as an agent of Yanukovuch's team - plain and simple. But not the Church as a whole. Metropolitan Volodymr even stated that the Church should be above political races. Individual bishops and clergy, on the other hand, eagerly took their 30 pieces of silver.

Yes, religious and political lines, in some places, were co-terminous, but religion was not an issue. The issue is whether Ukraine faces West or East. History has greatly influenced who views which direction, and yes the Church has been involved as a promoter, but not a deciding factor.

The split in Ukraine today is drastic and sad enough already. Don't turn it into a religious conflict as well.

Official Observer, No. 3387

#169885 11/25/04 08:06 PM
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Let me ask just one question: If after an new count of votes are made and Yanukovuch is still to found to be the winner will western Ukraine accept this result or will they continue to disrupt businesses and the normal day-to-day commerce as is being done today???

JoeS

#169886 11/25/04 08:08 PM
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//The split in Ukraine today is drastic and sad enough already. Don't turn it into a religious conflict as well//

You give me too much credit, if religion takes a part in this it will be by the Ukrainians not me.

JoeS

#169887 11/25/04 08:28 PM
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JoeS:
Here's is what the US has been saying:
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....6189997&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....4353601&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....5729181&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

Quote
"We cannot accept this result as legitimate because it does not meet international standards and because there has not been an investigation of the numerous and credible reports of fraud and abuse."

"We call for a full review of the conduct of the election and the tallying of election results,"
Please note that the US view of the problem is not limited to incorrect tallying of votes. Thus the suggestion

Quote
If after an new count of votes are made and Yanukovuch is still to found to be the winner...
that a recount ought to be decisive for subsequent action is just completely out of touch with what the US, among others, hasd observed and is saying about the election.

#169888 11/25/04 08:31 PM
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I wonder if Eastern Ukraine is treated to the same falsified TV images the Russians are?

Gaudior, who has never seen anything this contemptable since the now deposed Mr. Hussain announced he had 100% of the vote

#169889 11/25/04 08:34 PM
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I just read this.
Pravda

I used to think U.S. politics could get nasty. Our politics are tame in comparison.

#169890 11/25/04 08:39 PM
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... I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine ...
I guess I miss the irony. There has been considereable interest in the electionin Ukraine with extensive monitoring. That is why the US can confidently assert the illegitimancy of the election.

Neither can we assert that our election process is without problems - and thus shouldnot be monitored. We're certainly ahead of Ukraine - no one feels they can get away with poisioning their opponent here - but we could do a lot more for equal access and transparency. With sharp divisions, and closely contested elections, we really need to do better.

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