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#169891 11/25/04 08:46 PM
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djs Offline
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ByzTn:

Great link!
I really enjoyed the story on Boriska, the boy from Mars!

Reminds of Soviet-era saying:

There is no izvestia in Pravda; there is no pravda in Izvestia.

#169892 11/26/04 01:20 AM
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I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS

#169893 11/26/04 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?

#169894 11/26/04 01:50 AM
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Here's something from the Ukrainian High Court.

Ukrainian Court [ap.tbo.com]

#169895 11/26/04 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?
The laws weren't followed leading up to and during the election. Does that answer your second question?

#169896 11/26/04 10:13 AM
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Picked up from the BBC News page this morning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038409.stm
Quote
Monitors criticise conduct of Ukraine poll

International election monitors say they believe Ukraine's presidential poll was not fully free and fair.

Ukrainian election officials setting up a ballot box

The Central Election Commission "displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election" is how the main body co-ordinating international monitors put it on the day after the poll.

Below are the key findings of the International Election Observation Mission, which had 563 observers in Ukraine.

They were sent by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the EU parliament, the Council of Europe and Nato.

DURING THE CAMPAIGN

Favouring one candidate

"The abuse of state resources in favour of the prime minister demonstrated a widespread disregard for the fundamental distinction between the state and partisan political interests."

The state-funded media displayed "overt bias" which "continued to favour the prime minister in news presentation and coverage of the campaign".

Abuse of power

"Some citizens whose livelihood depends directly or indirectly upon the state were placed under duress to acquire and hand over to their superiors an absentee voting certificate".

"Observers reported that these documents were collected in the workplace on an organised basis."

Dubious data

The IEOM says the election was "compromised by significant shortcomings" including:

the inability of the local state executive to produce accurate voting lists
a lack of transparency in the tabulation of the first round results

the reluctance of the Central Election Commission (CEC) to grant relief on complaints, thus impeding legal redress

POLLING DAY

Intimidation

"Observers reported that...a significant number of polling stations commissions (PSC) members had been dismissed or ejected".

"Police were present in a majority of polling stations visited. In some instances unauthorised persons were interfering in or directing the process."

The IEOM reports that harassment was greater than it had been in the first round of voting the previous month, and worst in central and eastern Ukraine. These regions appear to be more strongly pro-government.

Extra votes

"A high number of votes - approximately 5% - were added to voter lists on election day. Almost all the added voters used absentee certificates."

Voters using absentee ballot certificates "were transported by bus in a number of regions".

Mystery votes

"Despite the suspiciously high turnout in some regions, overcrowding was reported by IEOM observers to be less of a problem in eastern regions than elsewhere."

The IEOM gives two examples of suspiciously high turnout. Both cities are in eastern Ukraine - 96.3% turnout in Donetsk and 88.4% in Lugansk.

"Far fewer voters were turned away from polling stations due to inaccuracies in the voter list during the second round than in the first round, but once again there was a regional variation, with fewer voters being turned away in the east".

VOTE COUNTING

Open to tampering

"Problems included lack of sufficient attention to ballot security and counting procedures. In almost half of polling stations, unauthorised persons were present, including police and local government officials."

"The last minute dismissals by Territorial Election Commissions (TECs) of hundreds of Polling Station Commissions appointed by the opposition in Kirovohrad, a key marginal region, and others in Donetsk, Zakarpattiya, Zaporizhia, Kyiv, Khmlenitsky, Odessa and Volyn, lessened transparency."

#169897 11/26/04 01:10 PM
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More from AP on Ukraine.

Ukraine [ap.tbo.com]

#169898 11/26/04 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by byzanTN:
I just read this.
Pravda [english.pravda.ru]

I used to think U.S. politics could get nasty. Our politics are tame in comparison.
Wow...and I thought the stuff going on in the editorial pages in our newspapers was rough...

Vie

#169899 11/26/04 02:04 PM
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An opposing view from the Eastern part of Ukraine:

Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
Created: 25.11.2004 17:30 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:30 MSK , 6 hours 2 minutes ago


MosNews

Renowned Russian political scientist Sergei Markov told reporters in Moscow on Thursday that the ongoing political crisis in Ukraine was in fact a Polish conspiracy with the aim of imposing Polish patronage over Ukraine and thus raising Polish influence within the European Union.

"Yushchenko's electoral campaign has been developed within the Polish diaspora abroad and its ideological basis was prepared by former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski and his two sons," the Newsru.com web-site quoted Markov as saying.

Markov said that another ethnic Pole, Andrian Karatnitsky, the head of the U.S. foundation Freedom House, had hired Serbian spin doctors and brought them to Ukraine ahead of the presidential elections. (Another Russian political scientist, Gleb Pavlovsky, said in a Wednesday evening news broadcast on Russia's RTR television channel that Yushchenko's campaign had been prepared by the same specialists who prepared similar campaigns in Serbia and Georgia).

"The arrival of Lech Walesa and Aleksander Kwasniewski as intermediaries in the Ukraine negotiations would become a part of the Tbilisi-Belgrade scenario, as the objective of these intermediaries is not peace, but a passing of power to Yushchenko," Markov said.

He added that the original plan is for Poland to impose its patronage over Ukraine. Polish politicians are seeking more influence within the European Union, currently dominated by France and Germany, and to achieve this, they want to become patrons of the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, the Russian analyst said.

Markov said the United States would benefit from a Yushchenko victory as it would weaken Germany and France on the world arena and also split Ukraine and Russia. He also added that "the majority of the representatives of the Polish diaspora in the United States hate George Bush and want to cause a quarrel between him and Russian President Vladimir Putin".

Markov also said that the main drawback of the plan was that its implementation was possible only on condition of extreme secrecy. He reminded the press that due to historical reasons the Ukrainians are very suspicious of the Poles and such a plan would find widespread disapproval among the majority of Ukrainians.

JoeS

#169900 11/26/04 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by djs:
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... I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine ...
I guess I miss the irony. There has been considereable interest in the electionin Ukraine with extensive monitoring. That is why the US can confidently assert the illegitimancy of the election.

Neither can we assert that our election process is without problems - and thus shouldnot be monitored. We're certainly ahead of Ukraine - no one feels they can get away with poisioning their opponent here - but we could do a lot more for equal access and transparency. With sharp divisions, and closely contested elections, we really need to do better.
Maybe irony was the wrong word to use...it's just that so many here were polarized during this past election: blue states, red states, liberal, conservative, that sort of thing. Yet thru it all, it was all peaceful and at the end, while harsh words were spoken on both sides, most people just got back down to the business of living their lives. Even in 2000, when the whole Florida mess came up, everything was peaceful...I look at what is happening in the Ukraine and realize(probably for the millionith time)that things here are so much better than than I sometimes think they are.

Vie

#169901 11/26/04 03:34 PM
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I quite agree with Vie...

Ukrainians are already talking about a "Chestnut Revolution". Everything seems peaceful, but some shots were fired over the heads of those assembled to show support for Yushchenko. It could get very ugly. The US Department of State has issued a warning to Americans not to travel in Ukraine, and, if they must, to avoid the protests.

Gaudior, who prays for a peaceful resolution, and hopes Yushchenko doesn't accept any food or drink at the meeting with Kuchma.

#169902 11/26/04 04:10 PM
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Vie,
I understand your point better. But monitoring elections is about probing whether they are "free and fair", not about maintaining/securing peace in the aftermath.

I think that no American, would, for example, have accept allowing any foreign troops here to oversee the election process. In Ukraine - I have read from an on-the-scene blog, that Russian troops had been invited into and are present in Kiev. I wonder - JoeS - are there any Polish, American, EU troops there? How clever for the russian propagandists to play the Polish card!

#169903 11/26/04 04:42 PM
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Dear djs,

News sources have also reported it...Mind, they are Russian Special Forces dressed in Ukrainian Army uniforms...Must be a Polish plot eek

Gaudior, who thinks that the pro-government partisans are really reaching in their fiction writing...

#169904 11/26/04 04:45 PM
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As long as PM Kuchma (sp?)is in the driver seat admitting Russian troops is his option. When Yuschenko gets in he will remove them just like he will remove Ukraine troops from Iraq. I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.

JoeS (who feels no matter who wins there will be no peace in Ukraine)

#169905 11/26/04 06:01 PM
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I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.
:rolleyes:
They are allowed to have their opinion. They are allowed to voice it. They can even expect for their views to be heard and considered. They simply do not have a right to expect that others must believe them. That's all.

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