The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
CuriousMarten, Pilgrim500, Waylon, reikan, sadsappysucker
5,754 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (Ruthenian1988), 82 guests, and 41 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,026
Posts413,839
Members5,754
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 19 1 2 3 4 18 19
#169891 11/25/04 08:46 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
D
djs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
ByzTn:

Great link!
I really enjoyed the story on Boriska, the boy from Mars!

Reminds of Soviet-era saying:

There is no izvestia in Pravda; there is no pravda in Izvestia.

#169892 11/26/04 01:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS

#169893 11/26/04 01:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?

#169894 11/26/04 01:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
Here's something from the Ukrainian High Court.

Ukrainian Court

#169895 11/26/04 07:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?
The laws weren't followed leading up to and during the election. Does that answer your second question?

#169896 11/26/04 10:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,575
O
Member
OP Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,575
Picked up from the BBC News page this morning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038409.stm
Quote
Monitors criticise conduct of Ukraine poll

International election monitors say they believe Ukraine's presidential poll was not fully free and fair.

Ukrainian election officials setting up a ballot box

The Central Election Commission "displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election" is how the main body co-ordinating international monitors put it on the day after the poll.

Below are the key findings of the International Election Observation Mission, which had 563 observers in Ukraine.

They were sent by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the EU parliament, the Council of Europe and Nato.

DURING THE CAMPAIGN

Favouring one candidate

"The abuse of state resources in favour of the prime minister demonstrated a widespread disregard for the fundamental distinction between the state and partisan political interests."

The state-funded media displayed "overt bias" which "continued to favour the prime minister in news presentation and coverage of the campaign".

Abuse of power

"Some citizens whose livelihood depends directly or indirectly upon the state were placed under duress to acquire and hand over to their superiors an absentee voting certificate".

"Observers reported that these documents were collected in the workplace on an organised basis."

Dubious data

The IEOM says the election was "compromised by significant shortcomings" including:

the inability of the local state executive to produce accurate voting lists
a lack of transparency in the tabulation of the first round results

the reluctance of the Central Election Commission (CEC) to grant relief on complaints, thus impeding legal redress

POLLING DAY

Intimidation

"Observers reported that...a significant number of polling stations commissions (PSC) members had been dismissed or ejected".

"Police were present in a majority of polling stations visited. In some instances unauthorised persons were interfering in or directing the process."

The IEOM reports that harassment was greater than it had been in the first round of voting the previous month, and worst in central and eastern Ukraine. These regions appear to be more strongly pro-government.

Extra votes

"A high number of votes - approximately 5% - were added to voter lists on election day. Almost all the added voters used absentee certificates."

Voters using absentee ballot certificates "were transported by bus in a number of regions".

Mystery votes

"Despite the suspiciously high turnout in some regions, overcrowding was reported by IEOM observers to be less of a problem in eastern regions than elsewhere."

The IEOM gives two examples of suspiciously high turnout. Both cities are in eastern Ukraine - 96.3% turnout in Donetsk and 88.4% in Lugansk.

"Far fewer voters were turned away from polling stations due to inaccuracies in the voter list during the second round than in the first round, but once again there was a regional variation, with fewer voters being turned away in the east".

VOTE COUNTING

Open to tampering

"Problems included lack of sufficient attention to ballot security and counting procedures. In almost half of polling stations, unauthorised persons were present, including police and local government officials."

"The last minute dismissals by Territorial Election Commissions (TECs) of hundreds of Polling Station Commissions appointed by the opposition in Kirovohrad, a key marginal region, and others in Donetsk, Zakarpattiya, Zaporizhia, Kyiv, Khmlenitsky, Odessa and Volyn, lessened transparency."

#169897 11/26/04 01:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,693
More from AP on Ukraine.

Ukraine

#169898 11/26/04 02:02 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 383
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 383
Likes: 1
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
I just read this.
Pravda

I used to think U.S. politics could get nasty. Our politics are tame in comparison.
Wow...and I thought the stuff going on in the editorial pages in our newspapers was rough...

Vie

#169899 11/26/04 02:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
An opposing view from the Eastern part of Ukraine:

Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
Created: 25.11.2004 17:30 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:30 MSK , 6 hours 2 minutes ago


MosNews

Renowned Russian political scientist Sergei Markov told reporters in Moscow on Thursday that the ongoing political crisis in Ukraine was in fact a Polish conspiracy with the aim of imposing Polish patronage over Ukraine and thus raising Polish influence within the European Union.

"Yushchenko's electoral campaign has been developed within the Polish diaspora abroad and its ideological basis was prepared by former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski and his two sons," the Newsru.com web-site quoted Markov as saying.

Markov said that another ethnic Pole, Andrian Karatnitsky, the head of the U.S. foundation Freedom House, had hired Serbian spin doctors and brought them to Ukraine ahead of the presidential elections. (Another Russian political scientist, Gleb Pavlovsky, said in a Wednesday evening news broadcast on Russia's RTR television channel that Yushchenko's campaign had been prepared by the same specialists who prepared similar campaigns in Serbia and Georgia).

"The arrival of Lech Walesa and Aleksander Kwasniewski as intermediaries in the Ukraine negotiations would become a part of the Tbilisi-Belgrade scenario, as the objective of these intermediaries is not peace, but a passing of power to Yushchenko," Markov said.

He added that the original plan is for Poland to impose its patronage over Ukraine. Polish politicians are seeking more influence within the European Union, currently dominated by France and Germany, and to achieve this, they want to become patrons of the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, the Russian analyst said.

Markov said the United States would benefit from a Yushchenko victory as it would weaken Germany and France on the world arena and also split Ukraine and Russia. He also added that "the majority of the representatives of the Polish diaspora in the United States hate George Bush and want to cause a quarrel between him and Russian President Vladimir Putin".

Markov also said that the main drawback of the plan was that its implementation was possible only on condition of extreme secrecy. He reminded the press that due to historical reasons the Ukrainians are very suspicious of the Poles and such a plan would find widespread disapproval among the majority of Ukrainians.

JoeS

#169900 11/26/04 02:07 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 383
Likes: 1
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 383
Likes: 1
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Quote
... I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine ...
I guess I miss the irony. There has been considereable interest in the electionin Ukraine with extensive monitoring. That is why the US can confidently assert the illegitimancy of the election.

Neither can we assert that our election process is without problems - and thus shouldnot be monitored. We're certainly ahead of Ukraine - no one feels they can get away with poisioning their opponent here - but we could do a lot more for equal access and transparency. With sharp divisions, and closely contested elections, we really need to do better.
Maybe irony was the wrong word to use...it's just that so many here were polarized during this past election: blue states, red states, liberal, conservative, that sort of thing. Yet thru it all, it was all peaceful and at the end, while harsh words were spoken on both sides, most people just got back down to the business of living their lives. Even in 2000, when the whole Florida mess came up, everything was peaceful...I look at what is happening in the Ukraine and realize(probably for the millionith time)that things here are so much better than than I sometimes think they are.

Vie

#169901 11/26/04 03:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
I quite agree with Vie...

Ukrainians are already talking about a "Chestnut Revolution". Everything seems peaceful, but some shots were fired over the heads of those assembled to show support for Yushchenko. It could get very ugly. The US Department of State has issued a warning to Americans not to travel in Ukraine, and, if they must, to avoid the protests.

Gaudior, who prays for a peaceful resolution, and hopes Yushchenko doesn't accept any food or drink at the meeting with Kuchma.

#169902 11/26/04 04:10 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
D
djs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Vie,
I understand your point better. But monitoring elections is about probing whether they are "free and fair", not about maintaining/securing peace in the aftermath.

I think that no American, would, for example, have accept allowing any foreign troops here to oversee the election process. In Ukraine - I have read from an on-the-scene blog, that Russian troops had been invited into and are present in Kiev. I wonder - JoeS - are there any Polish, American, EU troops there? How clever for the russian propagandists to play the Polish card!

#169903 11/26/04 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,310
Dear djs,

News sources have also reported it...Mind, they are Russian Special Forces dressed in Ukrainian Army uniforms...Must be a Polish plot eek

Gaudior, who thinks that the pro-government partisans are really reaching in their fiction writing...

#169904 11/26/04 04:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 287
As long as PM Kuchma (sp?)is in the driver seat admitting Russian troops is his option. When Yuschenko gets in he will remove them just like he will remove Ukraine troops from Iraq. I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.

JoeS (who feels no matter who wins there will be no peace in Ukraine)

#169905 11/26/04 06:01 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
D
djs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Quote
I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.
:rolleyes:
They are allowed to have their opinion. They are allowed to voice it. They can even expect for their views to be heard and considered. They simply do not have a right to expect that others must believe them. That's all.

Page 2 of 19 1 2 3 4 18 19

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5