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#169906 11/26/04 06:09 PM
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I am just nitpicking! wink

Although Poland and Lithuania are both predominatnly Roman Catholic, geographically they form part of Eastern Europe.

Either or both countries might be considered pro-Western after (and before?) the fall of Soviet communism and that seems to be JoeS' point.

Amado

#169907 11/26/04 06:15 PM
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What is the point?
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#169908 11/26/04 06:17 PM
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I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But Im sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who dont want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isnt she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the worlds problems? Im sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS

#169909 11/26/04 06:27 PM
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The point?

Poland and Lithuania ARE in Eastern Europe, a correction of Joe's:

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I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all
JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern European heritage.

Amado

#169910 11/26/04 06:28 PM
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Amado,

That is affirmative.

JoeS

//JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern European heritage.

Amado//

#169911 11/26/04 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But Im sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who dont want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isnt she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the worlds problems? Im sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS
Umm - I can't help wondering here

Are you protecting your borders if you send Special Forces in to another country by air and by train and by road - when they have not been invited by the Government of the other country ?

This is what has happened in Ukraine

#169912 11/26/04 07:46 PM
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Myths and Truths of the tent city

Article only in Ukrainian so far. It debunks the following myths:
1) There is no order in the tent city
2) There's not enough food. People are starving
3) People nearly freezing to death
4) There are no representatives from the East
5) Nearly everyone leaves at night

The article ends with some nice quotes from the camp, including two lads addressing camp security (in Russian): "We voted for Yanukovych... what can we do to help? We want to make good!"

#169913 11/26/04 07:52 PM
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JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern
European heritage.

Amado
Dear Amado,

I recall the fear among Eastern European nations, that NATO was drawing lines in the sand. They were basically dividing Europe. The Catholic and Protestant countries were in, the Orthodox were out.

I recall reading a quote, (can't remember the title of the book), from an Orthodox monk that stated the West wants to destroy the Orthodox faith. Now at first glance, I thought of it as rediculous, and just more Orthodox paranoia. But then I reconsidered it from a more objective viewpoint.

There is a cultural divide between the Catholic and Protestant West and the Orthodox East. One might not say it is a war between the Churches, but the Churches do form personality differences in their participants, as well as allegiances to those that are similar to them. So, taking this into account, the monk might not have been too far off.

Also, let's consider Russia's viewpoint. She see's all these Western allegiances facing who? Russia of course. In her viewpoint, we are still perceiving her as the 'enemy'.

So all the actions of the (Protestant and Catholic) nations that were part of the Soviet Union, wanting Europe to accept them into NATO and the EU, mainly for protection, are now causing Russia to restart her nuclear programs.

I think the Ukraine is another extension of that problem. What a pity, considering the secularism that has become rampant in Europe, and the constant threat of militant Islam.

Zenovia

#169914 11/26/04 08:21 PM
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Zenovia:

Your thesis that NATO is preventing Eastern European countries (formerly of the Soviet Bloc) from membership, especially those countries with Orthodox majority, appears to be imaginary.

Of the 26 member-nations, the following countries from Eastern Europe, with Orthodox majority, are now members of NATO: Bulgaria and Romania.

Of course, Greece, an overwhelmingly Orthodox country, is a member as well as muslim Turkey.

And then there are: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, and Slovakia, which have significant Orthodox populations.

I think there is a standing NATO offer to Russia for membership as well.

I can't agree with your observations.

Amado

#169915 11/27/04 12:45 AM
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JoeS:
Are you suggesting a moral equivalence here?
What has the US done to countries that share its borders that could possibly compare with the actions within Ukraine directed from Moscow - like 20 million starved to death, for starters. What?

#169916 11/27/04 12:55 AM
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For those who like "statistics", the blog I've been reading has a nice map:
(Warning: the language at this site gets very rough.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/26/155033/85

It's clear by the way, that while the couple of oblasts that are predominantly UGCC were very strongly Y-ko, there are many areas that in which GCs are a scarce minority that are still strongly Y-ko. Interestingly, Kiev is 75:20 Y-ko over Y-vych. The cultural divding line is much further West than I had previously thought.

#169917 11/27/04 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
Polish media has been completely overtaken by the events in Ukraine. The overall Polish concensus is: this is our chance to atone for all our historical sins towards the Ukrainians. We will do everything possible to help them escape Putin's Russian mob nightmare.

I.F.

#169918 11/27/04 01:16 AM
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Sorry, much further EAST.

#169919 11/27/04 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by djs:
For those who like "statistics", the blog I've been reading has a nice map:
(Warning: the language at this site gets very rough.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/26/155033/85

It's clear by the way, that while the couple of oblasts that are predominantly UGCC were very strongly Y-ko, there are many areas that in which GCs are a scarce minority that are still strongly Y-ko. Interestingly, Kiev is 75:20 Y-ko over Y-vych. The cultural divding line is much further West than I had previously thought.
The map is fiction.

5 of the 9 Eastern regions where the UGCC is about 1% of the population are in complete revolt in spite of the media beign under the control of the mob. People are not stupid.

The main cities of these zones (Oblasts) Kharkiv, Khersson, Zaporizhia, Mykolayiv, and Dnipropetrovsk have daily rallies with 80 - 90,000 people. Prime Minister Yanukovych tried to have himself declared president in Dnipropetrovsk yesterday and he was chased out of town. He always claimed this was one of his strongholds in the East. The only people that come to Kiev to support Yanukovich are either paid demonstrators or employees of companies who are forced to come to the capital city. The Moscow times did a great piece on this recently.

As of yesterday the reporter's union refused to present propaganda on the news so the Eastern zones (Oblasts) of the country stopped airing the news.

The only hope for president Kuchma and his hand picked replacement is a military coup d'etat. Russia has sent special forces into Kiev for this reason. A military crackdown is their only chance at this point.

Mikhail Gorbatchev (former premier of the USSR) has spoken in support of Yustchenko as has the leader of the opposition of the Russian Parliment.

I.F.

#169920 11/27/04 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by Gaudior:
I quite agree with Vie...

Ukrainians are already talking about a "Chestnut Revolution". Everything seems peaceful, but some shots were fired over the heads of those assembled to show support for Yushchenko. It could get very ugly. The US Department of State has issued a warning to Americans not to travel in Ukraine, and, if they must, to avoid the protests.

Gaudior, who prays for a peaceful resolution, and hopes Yushchenko doesn't accept any food or drink at the meeting with Kuchma.
Yustchenko was a very good looking man. This was part of his appeal. They secret police under comrade Putin's directives poisoned him with Digoxin and it disfigured him completely. The journal NATURE recently had an article about this. This was part of a strategic plan to ruin him and win the election for Moscow.

I.F.

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