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#169921 11/27/04 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But I’m sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who don’t want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isn’t she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the world’s problems? I’m sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS
THE URKAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE THEIR DESTINY. 5000 FOREIGN OBSERVERS STATED THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM THEM. THEIR DESTINY WAS STOLEN BY THE FORMER KGB AGENT PUTIN AND HIS RUSSIAN MAFIA.

I.F.

#169922 11/27/04 01:53 AM
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JF- Uh, it is rude to shout...

#169923 11/27/04 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
As long as PM Kuchma (sp?)is in the driver seat admitting Russian troops is his option. When Yuschenko gets in he will remove them just like he will remove Ukraine troops from Iraq. I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.

JoeS (who feels no matter who wins there will be no peace in Ukraine)
Only the Ukrainian Parliment (Verkhovna Rada) has the right to ask foreign troups on to the sovereign territory of the country. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A REQUEST FOR RUSSIAN MILITARY ASSISTANCE FROM THE UKRAINIAN PARLIMENT. The special Russian troups were sent into Ukraine for the illegal coup d'etat.

Poland sees itself as an equal to Ukraine and wishes that the two countries can be partners in a new Europe. Russia wants to continue it's colonial rule in Ukraine.

I.F.

#169924 11/27/04 02:08 AM
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At least they are still talking and not yet shooting at each other. That's a hopeful sign.
more Ukraine

#169925 11/27/04 04:41 AM
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I stated in a previous post, that in the eyes of the Russians, the Soviet Union might be gone, but we continue to see them as the 'enemy'.

In the past, the NATO borders ended where Orthodoxy began. Because of complaints, they are now ending, or at least trying to end their borders, where the Russian one's begin. To verify that, I give you the following quote:
Quote


The overall Polish concensus is:
this is our chance to atone for all our historical sins towards the Ukrainians. We will do everything
possible to help them escape Putin's Russian mob nightmare.

I.F.
I realize that Western influence in Eastern Europe, and now specifically the Ukraine, is purely to please and pacify the fears of the Eastern European countries. Yet, to Russia, it does appear as a threat. Is it any wonder that she is now restarting her nuclear program.

What a pity! Especially when we should be concentrating on the terrorists and their desire for Islamic expansionism.


Zenovia

#169926 11/27/04 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by Zenovia:
I realize that Western influence in Eastern Europe, and now specifically the Ukraine, is purely to please and pacify the fears of the Eastern European countries. Yet, to Russia, it does appear as a threat. Is it any wonder that she is now restarting her nuclear program.

What a pity! Especially when we should be concentrating on the terrorists and their desire for Islamic expansionism.
The 25 members of the European Union have not been so united on a single issue in years - 'Ukraine is European'. Today the EU has announced that they are now for the first time officialy reviewing Ukraine's speedy entry into the European Union - hoorah !

Recent news articles have noted the NATO alliance and other Western nations (Australia, Japan, Argentina, etc...) unanimity and solidarity on the issue of democracy in Ukraine.

Ukraine sees itself as an Orthodox Christian nation but pluralistic at the same time. It has made peace with it's 2 million muslims (4% of the total population), and unlike Russia has not had problems with terrorists.

George Bush understands that his policies and reputation concerning democracy in Iraq will be greatly helped or eroded depending on how he deals with the events in Ukraine.

Please pray for the democratic forces in Ukraine.

I.F.

#169927 11/27/04 07:27 PM
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An update which was posted on BBC News at 15.26 GMT today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4047421.stm

Ukrainian MPs reject election result

Thousands of opposition supporters are camped outside the building

Ukraine's parliament has declared last Sunday's presidential poll invalid.

MPs backed a resolution saying the result of the run-off election was "at odds with the will of the people".

Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych was declared the winner, but challenger Viktor Yushchenko has alleged fraud and refused to accept the result.

While the parliament cannot overturn the result, its views may carry weight with the supreme court, which meets on Monday to examine the fraud claims.

The parliament met in emergency session in the capital Kiev to discuss the crisis, and its proceedings were broadcast live on all national TV channels and to thousands of opposition protesters gathered outside the building.

A majority of MPs also passed a vote of no-confidence in the country's Central Elections Commission, which like the other vote was not legally binding.

Before the vote, parliamentary speaker Volodymyr Lytvyn told MPs the most realistic solution would be to invalidate the poll.

"The logical issue to be raised is to declare the election politically invalid because the true will of the people is now impossible to establish," he said.

Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot - speaking for the European Union - said the "ideal outcome" would be to hold new elections.

Mr Bot told reporters in The Hague that a new poll should take place before the end of the year.

The EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, who has been taking part in mediation efforts in Kiev, has described last Sunday's vote as fraudulent, adding that future relations with Ukraine depend on a democratic resolution.........


This announcement has also been carried on Channel 5 TV in Ukraine. [ this was picked up in London and relayed to me as well ]

The crowds are still there in Independence Square as they have been since Sunday - and it must be pointed out that the weather is not good.

Tomorrow is Sunday - please let us all pray that there will be a peaceful outcome to this.

I will offer prayers and candles at my Mass tomorrow.

Will you do the same ?

Anhelyna

#169928 11/27/04 07:52 PM
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Ukraine - Another story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360951,00.html

This is meant to inform the uninformed as to the arguments on the "other side". Regardless of what one's personal opinion is of what is going on in Ukraine it is always good to know, for better or worse, the opinions of those who are cast off as undesirables.

JoeS

#169929 11/27/04 07:53 PM
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I have just found this on Ukrayinska Pravda [ in English of course biggrin ]

http://www2.pravda.com.ua/en/archive/2004/november/24/4.shtml

How Yanukovich Forged the Elections. Headquarters’ Telephone Talks Intercepted


translated by Antony Leovin , 24.11.2004, 17:25

High security officials have transmitted some audio files and paper copies of the talks of the representatives of Viktor Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters to Yushchenko’s headquarters.

These data evidence that during the two election rounds the voting and counting processes were entirely controlled by Yanukovich’s headquarters.

Yanukovich’s team has insensibly reached the expected result through using absentee certificates, secret and home voting, etc.

They compared the quantity of absentee certificates, outer voting and other forgery technologies to the exit-poll results, and thus were beforehand aware of the outcomes up to hundredths of one per cent.

Below you will find only three uncensored talks which took place on the day of the second round. Yushchenko’s headquarters have promised to publish those files within some hours.

21 November 2004. 5:59 p.m.

Levenets’ (Yanukovich’s spin-doctor): How are you?

Anonym: Up to now we have the data for 2:30 p.m. Yet we are behind by 1.46.

Levenets’: Is that for the whole unit?

Anonym: We have interrogated 6.700, i.e., 60% of our sampling. As far as I understand the trend is now to take our direction because the whole village has voted. We’ll be gaining.

Levenets’: When are we going to have the approximate data?

Anonym: After seven o’clock. We have agreed now we are to do that by six.

Levenets’: By six we must have positive results. Guess you are in connection with Edik, aren’t you?

Anonym: Yes, I am. At what time shall it come out?

Levenets’: At 6:00 p.m. the preliminary results must be in our favour.

Anonym: We have an agreement with him that I should give him the actual results, he gives operation factors… We need about half an hour. No, wait. We are only to finish at 6:00 p.m. So probably at 7:00 p.m. After 7:00 p.m. I will give the actual results. We’ll settle the operation factors and achieve the factors we need in all regions.

Levenets’: All right.

21 November 2004. 7:05 p.m.

Levenets’: Hi! So what… How are you?

Valery: Nothing to boast of. We’re in minus.

Levenets’: What do you mean?

Valery: Our opponent has got 48.37, we have only 47.64.

Levenets’: Is that by 6:00 p.m.

Valery: We have agreed that the difference should be some 3-3.5 per cent in our favour. Now we have the table for the regions. In 15 or 20 minutes we fax it.

Levenets’. How many people had you interrogated by 6:00 p.m.?

Valery: 10612

Levenets’: It that the "real"?

Valery: Yes. Shall we place these data on the site? Or shall we pass them to Interfax least we should appear on the TV.

Levenets’: Call up Prutnik, these matters are in his competence.

Valery: Guess we should speed up the administrative measures in order to shun eventual troubles.

Levenets’. Got it. Well, hear you later.

21 November 2004. 7:34 p.m.

An anonym is telling Sergiy Kluev, brother of boss of Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters Andriy Kluev, that they have "raised for 30% in an hour in the Kiev Polytechnic Institute.”

Anonym: We have started driving students in slippers out. Teachers have taken their place by the gate. “Let no strangers in.”

Kluev: Let’s send our assault group there.

Anonym: Already sent.

Kluev. Then let’s manage a scuffle there or something in the way.

Anonym: Already in process.

22 November 2004. 5:30 a.m.

Levenets’: How are you? What? Kiev is rioting…

Anonym: My situation is as follows: roughly speaking, I have gathered 18.2 per cent for our contender and 76 for Yushchenko.

Levenets’: Have you counted all?

Anonym: All counted and I have the following to do...

Levenets’: Have you got all protocols with you?

Anonym: I have everything with me. But the Central Election Commission has put aside seven protocols, as I commanded them. I have to find out whether to foil them or not.

Levenets’: Have you the reasons to foil?

Anonym: I have.

Levenets’: So what’s the trouble?

Anonym: The indices will go down, though the balance is negative, of course.
Levenets’: Hell with those indices. The balance will be better.

Anonym: Sure.

Levenets’: Well, no more questions. Do that.

Anonym: Got it. Now I’ll try.

Levenets’: No problem. We are leading. You increase our balance, we just broaden the difference.

These are just several talks generously given to Yushchenko’s representatives. In general, the records now in possession of Yushchenko’s headquarters contain the talks between the representatives of Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters from the 30th of October up to this day.

The records contain voices of Medvedchuk, Kivalov, Kluev brothers, Tsariov, Liovochkin and Prutnik.

Oleg Rybachuk, the head of Viktor Yushchenko’s office, stated that those talks would be published in the nearest future. Moreover, they were being prepared to be transferred to international institutes, foreign embassies and NGOs.

People’s deputy asserted he was then preparing requests to the General Office of Public Prosecutor and to the Security Office of Ukraine demanding either to explain, refute or ascertain the authenticity of the records.

Rybachuk especially emphasized that the person who had given the records to Yushchenko’s representatives was in a secure place. The person was ready to take part in a trial and had an unwavering purpose to ascertain the authenticity of those records before the court.

#169930 11/27/04 08:47 PM
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dear Friends,

I have just been asked to post something for one of our Canadian Members - he can't remember his password so has asked me to do it for him

NO - it's not Alex - honest it's not smile You will see that the area of Canada is totally different.

Cabbage received this e-mail from his Priest today

Christ is in our midst!

 I am sure you are all aware of the political unrest in Ukraine at this time. Simply from the point of justice and freedom, this is an important issue for the global community. However, it has other, even more critical implications, as well. When Vladimir Putin was elected president of Russia, he said that one of his goals was to rebuild the old Soviet block. After Russia, Ukraine is a largest of the former Soviet republics; Mr. Putin cannot fulfill his plans without Ukraine, and he and his supporters will stop at nothing to keep Ukraine under their influence. (As one person pointed out to me: Everyone that has played the board game Risk [even Jerry Seinfeld] knows that you have to own Ukraine to win).

 Russia and the Kremlin-backed politicians of Ukraine have never lost their distrust for the west, especially America, which dates back to the days of the USSR. Just last week, Putin announced that Russia is restarting their nuclear weapons program, with the goal of creating new weapons capable of overcoming the USA's proposed network of strategic defense satellites. If the pro-Russian side prevails in this falsified Ukrainian election, the world could be heading towards another Cold War. (Been there, done that... don't want to go there again-especially not with my children.)

 This is not just a local issue for Ukraine or people of Ukrainian descent. This is a global issue, and it requires all of our prayers. To this end the Winnipeg Deanery of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada will be celebrating a prayer service for the situation in Ukraine at 10:00 AM tomorrow morning at Holy Trinity Cathedral, 1175 Main St. If you have the time please come out and offer your prayers.


Anhelyna - who seems to be doing a lot of posting for other folk at present

PS = Fr Andrew did add the reason for this e-mail and I will make it in a separate post

#169931 11/27/04 09:25 PM
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Friends - this is the e-mail that Fr Andrew received which triggered off his e-mail to his parishioners - and each one received this as well - I find it very thought provoking.

To put all of this in perspective, here is an email that I received earlier today:
 

AN ANALOGY

Imagine if... there was an election in Canada and the mafia ran a political party and made Tony Soprano its candidate.

What if... the CBC, CTV, Global, the Globe and Mail, Star, National Post and every other TV, radio station and newspaper were told to support Mr. Soprano and instructed to ignore or denigrate his opponent.

Consider if... the superpower next door (which in our case the US and in Ukraine's case Russia), decided to finance and support Mr. Soprano's campaign to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars
but you know that the US President and Mr. Soprano are actually colluding and the plan is for the Americans to get our water, oil and resources and to one day take over the country.

Picture...your boss calling you in and telling you that unless you vote for Mr. Soprano, you will lose your job your brother was beaten by the local mafia capo for wearing a button supporting your candidate

Imagine if...despite all of this manipulation, media bias, foreign meddling and intimidation - you still vote for your candidate, and so do the majority of Canadians

Except...
Mr. Soprano's people control the entire election apparatus and commit a massive fraud - stuffing ballot boxes, beating or killing his opponent's supporters and giving his people millions of absentee ballots in one province, the voter turn out was 104%, and everyone voted for Mr. Soprano.

Incensed...
you and a million other Canadians flock to Parliament Hill in Ottawa in freezing temperatures to protest and hope for a velvet revolution to overturn the results. even though there are thousands of riot police and soldiers in Ottawa, you are confident that your fellow Canadians will not shoot you (and suspect that they may have voted for the same person you did) but there are reliable rumours that the United States has sent troops who will not hesitate to pump you full of bullets

Imagine that...
despite all this, you are buoyant, positive, up-beat and optimistic, but absolutely committed that the criminally corrupt politicians and the neighbouring superpower will not steal your election, your sovereignty or your destiny. you and millions of your countrymen love a politician and everything that he stands for enough to spend four days and nights in sub-zero temperatures and risk your life to fight for his rightful victory (how rare!)

Not that they ever would, but if the Americans were to pull these kind of shenanigans in Canada, what would the rest of the world do? We sure would appreciate their help wouldn't we?


I have to say - I think this is a splendid analogy

#169932 11/27/04 09:29 PM
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BRAVO, Fr. Andrew!

Prayers for Ukraine, as her situation does affect the rest of the world.

Gaudior, definitely and decidedly in favour of Yushchenko.

#169933 11/27/04 09:50 PM
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Ukraine - Another story II:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1360296,00.html

For those who dare to read,

JoeS

#169934 11/27/04 09:55 PM
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I feel like I am a voice crying in the wilderness. I know, Im a guest and I should know that I am greatly outnumbered here which is understandable. But what a great feeling you get when the you are a lonely voice trying to get the other side of the argument out in plain language to read.

JoeS cool

#169935 11/27/04 10:11 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I feel like I am a voice crying in the wilderness. I know, Im a guest and I should know that I am greatly outnumbered here which is understandable. But what a great feeling you get when the you are a lonely voice trying to get the other side of the argument out in plain language to read.

JoeS cool
JoeS - a quick question - do you approve of a country putting it's troops into another unasked - and once they arrive make them strip their uniforms off and dress them in the uniform of the 'host' country .

It has happened - they have been seen

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