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#169951 11/28/04 09:48 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
//Our Lady's slave of love
JoeS - a quick question - do you approve of a country putting it's troops into another unasked - and once they arrive make them strip their uniforms off and dress them in the uniform of the 'host' country .//

It is interesting that there is no objections with the U.S. calling the shots for Ukraine. The U.S. has poured a lot of cash to the Yuschenko cause. I just hope you dont mind it once your favorite candidate takes office and has to follow the U.S. line or find himself at odds with Washington. It should be a very interesting especially when we look at developments down the road for Ukraine. I hope it works out but Ukraine should not be so indepted to the U.S. that it cannot sneeze without asking permission.
Good Luck, you will need it.
JoeS
Joe

I notice you did not answer the question

let me try it again

Would you object if you saw a Russion Special Forces soldier - removing his Russian uniform after entering Ukraine and replacing it with a Ukrainian uniform ?

Let me put it in simple terms.

You realise that a foreign army is in your country outfitted in your country's uniform.

This is Illegal

Do you object to their presence or do you collaborate with them

#169952 11/28/04 10:05 PM
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A soldier wearing another uniform in any country not his own is wrong. Is this what you wanted to hear from me? Our American CIA has done this many many times. South and Central America to name a couple. I dont think that either one is right.
JoeS

#169953 11/28/04 10:05 PM
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Joe also

Quote
The U.S. has poured a lot of cash to the Yuschenko cause. I just hope you dont mind it once your favorite candidate takes office and has to follow the U.S. line or find himself at odds with Washington.
I would take issue on that - I have memories that the Toronto Sun
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/11/28/737962.html

stated
Quote
While wily Putin was campaigning and intriguing furiously for Yanukovych, America, Canada, and Europe reacted with feebleness. Preoccupied by elections and Iraq, the Bush administration did little to support pro-western forces in Ukraine. Instead of shoring up Yushchenko's forces with finance and diplomatic support, Washington sent the lightweight Sen. Richard Lugar, a nobody on the international stage, to encourage them. Europe and Canada did even less.

After the rigged election, lame-duck U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell issued a series of unspecified "serious" threats against Ukraine, an unproductive demarche most observers regarded as too little, too late, and futile.
I will leave you to read the rest of the article for yourself

By the way - please remember I am neither Ukrainian, nor American . Also you should bear in mind that I am a Latin Catholic - not Eastern Catholic or UOC-KP or UAOC or even UOC- MP

#169954 11/28/04 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by JoeS:
A soldier wearing another uniform in any country not his own is wrong. Is this what you wanted to hear from me? Our American CIA has done this many many times. South and Central America to name a couple. I dont think that either one is right.
JoeS
Of course it is wrong. But, remember, the CIA is mainly a SPY agency, not a foreign army, or part thereof.

Gaudior, who asks why you would support ANYONE who does this

#169955 11/28/04 11:01 PM
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Dear All:

Nice to hear you all discussing this issue.

Allow me to make one comment how "unified" the people of the Ukraine are.

IMHO, this is impossible to measure accurately becasue the people of the Eastern regions have no access to objective reporting.

Until the demonstrations began last week, it was all state-sponsored media that was pro-Yakunovich and anti-Yushchenko.

Furthermore, the reason that the regional governors in the East are calling for automony is becasue they are pawns of the corrupt Kuchma regime. Plain and simple.

The major Ukrainian TV network 1+1 has vowed to begin truthful reporting immediately and it will be interesting to see how the miners and factory workers in the East react then.

Yours,

hal

#169956 11/28/04 11:49 PM
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Hal, I talked to my friend Vitaly who is a college student in Kyiv. Basically his entire college and faculty are in the streets. He is from Dnipropetrovsk, certainly no western nationalist stronghold, speaks Russian as his first language, and is completely in support of Yushchenko.

This is the unfolding of a unification of historic proportions. When Morosz, who as the leader of the Socialist Party, and vastly differing from Yushchenko politically, not only himself politically supports him, instructs his members to support Yuschenko, but even goes to the streets in solidarity with Yushchenko, that is something.

When both the Supreme Court and the Rada nullify the election, that is something. When the UOC-KP, the UAOC, the UGCC and even in some places RCC clergy meet together for molebens for the people, that is something speaking of unity. Bozhe velikij yedinu, nashu Kraijnu khrani.

#169957 11/29/04 01:13 AM
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To All,

May I give some other viewpoints. Certain nations in the EU, led by France, (and quite sucessfully I may add), want to make the EU a power greater than the U.S.

They want to do so, simply because they do not trust us, nor our policies. This is not only because of Iraq and the financial interests they had with Saddam Hussein, but because of our impositions on moral issues in the UN. As an example, our refusal to fund abortions in third world countries.

In other words, we are gradually becoming worlds apart with the EU in our moral stance.

As for Poland helping the Ukraine enter the EU, I can't help but wonder: Is it to help the Ukraine, or is it to hurt Russia? Somehow these lovey dovey feelings towards the EU and its 'master' state, Germany, really goes against history. Wasn't it the Germans that helped starve the Ukrainians, (as well as the Soviets), because they needed land for their expanding population.

If I recall correctly, they found the most productive land to be in the Ukraine. All the Nazi's had to do was exterminate the people.

Today I heard on French TV, something to the effect, that the Ukraine is ready to split in two. I think prayers are in order, because things are not as simple as people want them to be.

Just giving a few opinions on a subject I really don't know much about.

Zenovia

#169958 11/29/04 01:22 AM
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This article and map in the BBC should be of interest.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4043315.stm

#169959 11/29/04 01:55 AM
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The Ukraine should not split into two. The Little Russians in the eastern half know they are Little Russians and are ready to rejoin Great Russia. The Little Russians in the western half are contaminated by westernization and uniatism. They should swear allegiance to Moscow, dissolve the fake country of Ukraine and become part of Russia as is fitting.

#169960 11/29/04 02:26 AM
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Dear Zenovia:

There can be no doubt that Poland wants a "buffer" between themselves and Russia, but there is also a strong economic bent to their position as well.

Yours,

hal

P.S. To all members - KAMIKAZE MEMBER ALERT! DO NOT ENGAGE! I REPEAT -- PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE! wink

#169961 11/29/04 02:54 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by DJM:
The Ukraine should not split into two. The Little Russians in the eastern half know they are Little Russians and are ready to rejoin Great Russia. The Little Russians in the western half are contaminated by westernization and uniatism. They should swear allegiance to Moscow, dissolve the fake country of Ukraine and become part of Russia as is fitting.
DJM,

I assume that you are trying to be humorous in some kind of wierd way. Either that or you are trying to be provocative.

What you are saying is so "off the wall" that no one here will take you seriously at all.

Respectfully,

LatinTrad

#169962 11/29/04 02:54 AM
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Dear Diak:

Excellent points, as always. I think that the Western media in general and the American media specifically is stuck in the "blue state/red state" mentality.

In this case, it's "Orange Ukraine" vs. "Powder-Puff Blue Ukraine." biggrin

There is talk of an Eastern Ukrainian republic with Charkiv as its capitol, but, if I recall correctly, Charkiv's city council itself agreed that the election results were "suspect."

There are signs on Indep. Square indicating that there are residents of Donetsk (the mining center in East Ukraine) among the Yushchenko supporters.

The fact is that it is the GOVERNMENTS of the Eastern regions that are the ones doing the screaming. The people are, at best, split.

What about those attending the rallies and demostrations for Yanukovich? There are reports that they are being ordered to attend by their bosses at work and/or being paid. Interesting, eh?

One more point. The "East v. West" and "Catholic v. Orthodox" distinctions don't work, either. The "West" of which the media speaks of being Catholic and under Polish or Austrian rule is relatively small.

The central part of Ukraine, inlcuding Kyiv, has been ruled from Moscow for most of the time since the 13th Century.

Yet, somehow, Kyiv has been turned into a "Western Ukrainian" city that is primarily Catholic. WRONG!

Kyiv is mostly Orthodox and Russian is just as commonly heard there as Ukrainian.

Sorry for the ramble. I'll leave it there.

Yours,

hal

#169963 11/29/04 02:56 AM
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Dear LT:

Please see the thread entitled "Members who come in and out like the wind" under the Town Hall forum. Thanks!

Yours,

hal

#169964 11/29/04 04:04 AM
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Sounds like someone is still living back in the 80's. The U.S. isnt Internationalalistic? How about Bushism in the middle East? Name me one country who has more of it's hands in other countries business' than the U.S.? The average Russian dosnt believe he or she is still living under communism or some tyranny or czaristic rule.

I guess it depends on whose ox is getting gored.

JoeS

//Let us pray to God that the Russian people will someday be freed from the tyranny known as Czarist Imperialism, Russian Communism / Internatinalism, and now Putinism.//

#169965 11/29/04 04:32 AM
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Joe:

The reason the "average Russian" doesn't think that way is becasue they are not given the access to the information that would allow them to think otherwise.

hal

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