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Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170405 05/28/03 02:35 PM
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Dear Griego,

One issue with St Josaphat has less to do with him personally than with the way in which he was used by certain individuals to promote or impose union of the Orthodox with Rome.

Yes, this is sad.

What is even sadder is the painful memories of the "convert" programs of the RC authorities in Eastern Europe and also by EC religious Orders.

In addition, Josaphat is closely linked, of course, to the very essence of the Unia of Brest-Litovsk - something that even Rome today denies could ever be a model for "union" again.

The "logic" of that Unia from the RC side was that the Orthodox were "schismatics" in need of being "brought under" the jurisdiction of Rome.

This was also an attitude copped by many EC's later on toward their own Orthodox brothers and sisters.

Josaphat did indeed promote the Unia and, in accordance with the traditions of the time, he was not above using the civil power and authority to secure it.

For example, to maintain control over all the Greek Catholics under him, Josaphat enforced a law via the civil powers that ensured that all GC's went to confession during Lent to a GC priest.

One needed to get a certificate that proved that one went to Lenten confession from the GC priest and if one didn't, then an actual civil fine was levied! This is written up in the Basilian history of St Josaphat . . .

At a time when the Unia of Brest-Litovsk was being imposed on Orthodox parishes via the gendarmerie (who wanted to make sure that the "Filioque" was recited when the Creed was sung in Uniate parishes, for example), the use of the civil authorities by Josaphat was most alarming to both Orthodox and EC people.

On the day of his death at the hands of an unruly mob, Josaphat seemed to be inviting anger by having an individual arrested etc.

Of his desire for martyrdom in his cause - of this there can be no doubt.

When the mob descended on his home, Josaphat actually had an opportunity to make peace with them with respect to his "promotional activities."

He was brutally murdered afterwards and the mob even dressed him up in his episcopal robes, raising his lifeless body up, again and again, saying, "Come on, Vladyko, wake up - it's time to go preach the Unia!"

The Orthodox leaders and population condemned this act of murder. Many Orthodox actually became Catholic in the wake of this act than during Josaphat's lifetime.

Orthodox writers, who had no reason to like Josaphat or what he stood for, were known to defend his own personal morality and some even said that "he was genuine in believing in the rightness of his cause."

Orthodox even lined up to see Josaphat lying in state. Observers of different faiths noted that the Orthodox who walked by the coffin of Josaphat tried to "sniff" to see if there was an "odour of sanctity" about him!

And a number actually did bend over and kiss his exposed right hand - something Orthodox writers have never denied.

In fact, the Orthodox dislike for Josaphat developed not at the time of his death - he was done to death by a mob that did not represent the Orthodox population by any means - it developed later due to the political manipulation of Josaphat's memory by the Poles and Basilians especially.

For example, Josaphat was often painted as a Western hierarch, promoting all sorts of Latin devotions - this is the image the Poles and Basilians wanted to paint.

In fact, Josaphat was a scrupulous keeper of the Eastern traditions. He even forbade the introduction of the Carmelite Order on the grounds that it was primarily a Latin Order. (And on that score, I and others would disagree with him - but that is an aside, his heart was in the right place).

Josaphat didn't even insist that someone make an act of submission to the Pope to become "in communion with Rome" (something required of heretics becoming RC).

He would only have those wishing to become Eastern Catholic come into communion with the Eastern Catholic Metropolitan of Kyiv.

The Metropolitan was, in fact, the only EC hierarch or clergyman who actually commemorated the Pope of Rome in the Divine Liturgy - and that only once!

Josaphat visited the Kyivan Caves Lavra, and despite all the shaking of fists at him, he calmly had a conversation with the monks about liturgical rubrics and usage.

These same monks calmed down and then later accompanied Josaphat to the gates of Kyiv to prevent anyone attacking the infamous "soul-snatcher" ("Dushekhvat")

Again, the poor opinion of Josaphat among the Orthodox came not from Josaphat directly, but from the way he was used and interpreted by the fanatical Catholic promoters of the Unia later.

Let us also remember that the Churches in general were aligned with the secular powers, including the Russian Orthodox Church.

And the fact that Josaphat would often debate the Orthodox about the issue of union with Rome - well, he also debated Christianity with the Jews of his time.

And these same Jews found nothing wrong with that - they even defended him in writing.

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170406 05/28/03 03:17 PM
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It would be truly wonderful if the Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat worked some spectacular miracle just as the Holy Hieromonk Charbel did a few years ago in Lebanon. Maybe a delicious perfume emanating from his relics/tomb in St. Peter's. Holy Hieromartyr Josaphat and Holy Hieromonk Charbel pray for us unto Christ our God.
Silouan, old monk

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170407 05/28/03 03:32 PM
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Bless me a sinner, Father Silouan,

Actually, the relics of St Josaphat are not only incorrupt, they DO exude an aromatic odour!

This was first noticed by the Orthodox themselves when they walked by his coffin in Vitebsk, ostensibly to get a last look at their "enemy."

Father, your avatar is the miraculous image of Our Lady of Loreto, is it not?

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170408 09/06/05 03:53 AM
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griego catolico Offline OP
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Quote
Originally posted by griego catolico:
A topic for discussion...

Should the holy and incorrupt body of Saint Josaphat remain at the Vatican or should it be translated to a Byzantine Catholic church?

Should the relics be enshrined at Saint Sophia's Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in Rome or should they be enshrined in Ukraine such as St. George's in Lviv or the new UC cathedral that is being built in Kyiv?

Would the translation of the relics to a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic church lead to a greater veneration of Saint Josaphat among Byzantine Catholics?
Well, it's been over two years since I asked these questions, but I recently found this article on the "Catholic Church in Lithuania" website which provides some answers.

Vilnius, June 21: Basilians Intend to Transfer Relics of St. Josaphat to Vilnius

The provincial of the Holy Savior province of Ukrainian Order of Saint Basil Fr. Hrigory Hrinkiv announced the plan to transfer some relics of St. Josaphat from Rome to Vilnius. On Tuesday press conference he informed about the impressive plans of Basilians to restore the Holy Trinity monastery and The Holy Trinity Church.

“Lithuanian capital City Vilnius is the homeland of Basilians. Archbishop of Polotsk Josaphat Kuncevyc (Jozofat Kuncewicz) lived here in the Holy Trinity monastery, before he was killed by the enemies of Church unity in 1623,and afterwards canonized saint”, said Fr. Hrinkiv. He said that reconstruction should be finished before the 400 anniversary of Basilian Order to be celebrated in 2017.

According to the act of restitution, in 1992–1992 the buildings of the Holy Trinity monastery were gradually returned to the ownership of the Church. Until now Vilnius Archdiocesan Curia owns three-fourth part of the Holy Trinity monastery and one fourth belongs to the Basilian Order. Basilian superiors have expressed their wish to get back the ownership over the whole monastery.

There are 5 Eastern Catholic (Uniate) communities in Lithuania. Greek Catholics are among 9 religious communities being officially recognized by Lithuanian law.



Catholic Internet Service

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170409 09/06/05 06:31 AM
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There has been a marvelous ecumenical advance, thanks to the OCA. All devotees of Saint Josaphat, should rush out and purchase copes of The Priest's Service Book, published by the Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of the South, 4222 Wycliff Ave, PO Box 191109, Dallas, Texas 75219.

When the book arrives, turn to page 21, and see for yourselves who appears in the list of Saints. No doubt the next edition will include Saint Andrew Bobola, Saint Therese of Lisieux, and Saint Pius X.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170410 09/06/05 07:23 PM
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Dear Incognitus,

You mean St Josaphat himself is listed there?

If so, are you sure it isn't "St Josaphat Prince of India" who is commemorated in the same month?

I once heard an Orthodox priest tell me he had nothing against "local veneration" of St Josaphat.

And we know that the Orthodox flocked to see the saint's body lying in state and often even kissed his hand etc.

But for the OCA to include him in their calendar?

And to reject the rosary as purely RC?

Now that is interesting, Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor.

Did you know that, with you, the I's have it?

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170411 09/06/05 07:42 PM
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The one in India is Joasaph, not Josaphat, and is not a hierarch.

Incognitus

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170412 09/06/05 07:54 PM
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Dear Incognitus,

I'm just trying to find out, without buying the book you mention, if St Josaphat is indeed listed there.

Is he?

Or is that a secret too? wink

By the way, did you receive the copy of the akathist to Bl. Karl von Habsburg I sent to the Administrator to pass along to you?

What did you think of it?

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170413 09/07/05 01:10 AM
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St. Josephat in the Priest's Service Book? How did THAT one slip by the editors?

I have to look into this one, too!

Dave

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170414 09/07/05 01:27 AM
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posted 09-06-2005 02:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There has been a marvelous ecumenical advance, thanks to the OCA. All devotees of Saint Josaphat, should rush out and purchase copes of The Priest's Service Book, published by the Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of the South, 4222 Wycliff Ave, PO Box 191109, Dallas, Texas 75219.

When the book arrives, turn to page 21, and see for yourselves who appears in the list of Saints. No doubt the next edition will include Saint Andrew Bobola, Saint Therese of Lisieux, and Saint Pius X.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

+++++++++

In signing back on just to answer the above post I am going against a promise I made to myself. However, after reading Incognitus's post as it was sent to me, my reaction was such that I had to break that promise to respond.

Since I have the book mentioned I checked and there is indeed a St Josaphat mentioned on page twenty one. What gauls me is that some people here are so quick to condemn or insult Orthodoxy that they post insulting replies before checking the facts. Why does the poster immediately assume there is only one saint that goes by the identity of St Josaphat? Example - it most probably refers to St Josaphat Metropolitan of Moscow (which my friend the Orthodox priest contends).

I forwarded the post tyo an Orthodox priest friend of mine which is familiar with Archbishop Dimitri. This is his reply -

---------------
Dear Bob:

The poster, who is not only obviously being a bit antagonistic, merely
betrays his own lack of understanding.

1. "Josaphat" and "Joesaph" and "Iasaf" and "Ioasaph" are all one and the
same name.

2. The listing on page 21 does not refer to Josaphat Kuntzevich, which is a
ridiculous claim, at best, especially since Josaphat is listed among the
"wonderworkers of All Russia." Josaphat Kuntzevich was a wonderwork of all
Russia??? in fact, he wasn't even from Russia, but from the Polish/Lithuanian empire of his day,
Belarus today.

3. The listing on page 21 refers to Saint Joasaph [Josaphat] the
Metropolitan of Moscow, Wonderworker of All Russia.

4. There are several other Saint Joasaphs [Josaphats] on the Orthodox
calendar, including Saint Joasaph of Belgorod, a 16th century martyr named
Joasaph, as well as a Joasaph mentioned in the writings of Saint John of
Damascus, and others.

The comment made by the person -- claiming that Archbishop Dmitri's
inclusion [using the classic English version of "Joasaph," which is
"Josephat"] of Josephat Kuntzevich is rude at best, completely ignorant at
worst. If the writer knew those who thom the title "Wonderworker of All
Russia" is accorded, including Saint Joasaph Metropolitan of Moscow, he
would not have made such a comment. Then again....

Hope this helps.

-----------------

Anyhow, its nice to know that in spite of the insults and adverse comments about we Orthodox Catholics, you still utilize and depend on our theologians, books, icons, and spiritual tracks, etc. while you thumb your noses at the church you came from and who gave birth to you and nurtured you for so long.

Now, back to sign off before I say more.

OrthoMan

(Who loves his Orthodox faith & will defend it until death)

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170415 09/07/05 01:59 AM
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djs Offline
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Josaphat Kuntzevich was a wonderwork of all Russia??? in fact, he wasn't even from Russia, but from the Polish/Lithuanian empire of his day, Belarus today.
Aha! Can I believe my eyes? A stipulation that Belarus is not included in "all Russia"! Who known maybe they will lay off any claims to Ukraine, next. cool

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170416 09/07/05 02:10 PM
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Dear Bob Orthoman!

How WONDERFUL to see you here again, if only to tell Incognitus off! smile

(I agree with you, by the way!)

"Joasaph" and "Josaphat" are indeed one and the same name - I'm rather shocked at Incognitus!

And, yes, we all do depend on Orthodox theologians, traditions etc. as we truly do come from our Mother Orthodox Churches.

As I've always told you, I pray that we are reunited with our Mother Orthodox Churches in God's way, not ours.

FYI, the ROCOR priest that I told this to embraced me in real (bear) hug with a big smile on his face!

That we are ungrateful - the jury is out on that one too!

But it is great to see that our Orthoman is his old self and hasn't changed a bit! smile

May our Lord and St Panteleimon the all-merciful healer protect you and yours, Bob, now and always!

And you will now forgive me yet again:

Who da man?

YOU da man!

You da ORTHOman!!! smile smile

Thank you for making my week!

Your servant,

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170417 09/07/05 02:20 PM
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Dear djs,

Actually, Orthoman is right.

Josaphat Kuntzevich was actually born in Vladimir-Volynske in western Ukraine in the former commonwealth.

He would have considered himself to have been a member of the "Orthodox Church of Rus'"

And I believe his family was Belarusyan - his cult is strong in the Belarusyan Greek-Catholic Church.

The fact of the matter is that his cult was and is extremely controversial with respect to the Orthodox and there were EC Metropolitans of Kyiv/Kiev in history, as Fr. Ireney Nazarko OSBM writes, who actually discouraged public processions in Kiev in honour of St Josaphat (as did, at times, Met. Andrew Sheptytsky himself, I am brought to believe!).

The Greco-Uniate Metropolitans believed this public cult was an "unnecessary provocation of the Orthodox people."

In our "High Eastern" EC parishes, one can find his icon, but usually not in a prominent place and there isn't a lot done about his liturgical cult either.

In an article years ago by Eugene Ivankiw from Chicago, the author wrote that it is best to leave the cult of St Josaphat alone as it can lead to unnecessary misunderstanding etc.

In fact, EC's in the 17th and 18th centuries venerated the Orthodox St Athanasius of Brest, the Ihumen who was tortured by the Latins for condemning the Unia, taken into a forest and forced to dig his own grave before being shot twice and then buried ALIVE.

Eastern Catholics saw in him a hero not of "Orthodoxy" alone, but also of the "Eastern Church" and of the Rus' nationality.

This is why the Polish Jesuits enacted a feast for St Josaphat that came TWO DAYS before that of St Athanasius on September 18th - to discourage actual EC pilgrimages to the shrine of St Athanasius!

It was Met. Andrew Sheptytsky who restored the proper feast of St Josaphat on November 25 (Nov. 12 on your calendar).

I know you will join with me in applauding Bob Orthoman's presence among us today!

And I think the Administrator should call Incognitus to task for his comment suggesting that St Josaphat of Polotsk is honoured in the Orthodox calendar as an "unnecessary provocation of the Orthodox people."

Alex

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170418 09/07/05 03:02 PM
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Orthoman wrote:
Anyhow, its nice to know that in spite of the insults and adverse comments about we Orthodox Catholics, you still utilize and depend on our theologians, books, icons, and spiritual tracks, etc. while you thumb your noses at the church you came from and who gave birth to you and nurtured you for so long.
I agree with Bob that sometimes there are insults and adverse comments about Orthodoxy on this Forum. I try to stop it as soon as I see it. There is plenty of room for legitimate theological debate but such debate should be accomplished with Christian love and in Christian brotherhood.

I do hope our Orthodox posters will understand that our Greek Catholic brothers and sisters in Europe suffered greatly under the communists, and that some of this suffering was at the hands of people within the Moscow Patriarchate working together with the communists. Forgiveness is necessary but, for many, it is difficult. We all have need to confess our sins and to repent of them.

Quote
Orthoman wrote:
Now, back to sign off before I say more.

OrthoMan

(Who loves his Orthodox faith & will defend it until death)
I also love the Orthodox Faith and will defend it until death.

I thank Bob for providing clarification on this issue.

Re: Tomb of Saint Josaphat #170419 09/07/05 03:27 PM
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Dear Administrator,

I knew a Roman Catholic who kept an icon of the Pillars of Orthodoxy on his wall at home.

When I saw it, I asked him what that was all about . . .

He smiled and said that he kept it to remind himself that there are those who are not RC but who are just as dedicated to their Faith as he is to his own!

I think Bob Orthoman fulfills a similar purpose for us all here, don't you think? smile

All hail Bob Orthoman!!

(You forgot to say something to Incognitus about his "unnecessary provocation" . . . but I'm sure you have done so via PM . . .)

Alex

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