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Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177884 07/22/03 08:27 PM
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Jakub. Offline
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Dear Benedictine,

Please don't leave us few Latins, for we are a minority here and our Eastern brethern need us for balance smile .

And also, who are they going to bag on wink ?


james

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177885 07/22/03 09:06 PM
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Inawe Offline
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Dear Benedictine,

Actually I appreciated your clarification and I wasn't ganging up on you. I was simply surprised by your comments about Axios' right to comment and I said so and gave the reasons. I also tried to explain another way to interpret Axios's comments and provide some background color.

I am truly sorry that you saw that as ganging up on you. I've reread my comments and don't see that in what I've said to you. If it's there and I simply don't see it, please accept my apologies.

I have come to appreciate your postings and comments. But when I'm surprised and say so with reasons its not because I want to subject you to some kind of ridicule or abuse. For sure I haven't joined a gang.

I'd be rejected upon applying by most gangs that I know. There might even have been some here at one time or another who would reject my application to join their "gang". biggrin Im not sure if that's positive or negative. smile

I've been told by Alex that there is not a sarcastic element in your posting to Axios. I must have misunderstood. You concluded that I disagreed with your position on the Liturgy. I actually agree with you about that.

I thought that Axios was pointing out that there are those in our church who have an agenda contra the renewed liturgy and seek out "abuses" where there might not be any even before they happen. I didn't see him as disrespecting or attacking you or what you said. You see, misunderstandings.

At any rate, if you have chosen to rest from posting for a time, I hope that you will also follow Alex's other example and reconsider and post among us here soon. biggrin

Even in the best of families there are disagreements and misunderstandings. There seems to be a lot of that in this thread.

Here, you're part of the family! So, don't leave home; but if you must, hurry back.

Peace In Our Father, Benedict!

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177886 07/23/03 12:43 PM
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Inawe Offline
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Dear Alex,

Are you saying that I've lost my balance? biggrin You aren't the first.

Of course, I'd chose a Benedictine, too, if the choice were reversed.

Perhaps if you put a Ph.D. and two Basilians into your side of the balance.... :rolleyes:

Thank you for your comments stating that I have not pulled rank on you. It's not my ususal practice.

Perhaps if I were the owner of the Papal carpet that I called you onto... wink

I'm glad that people like you and the Benedictine and other posters take the time to enter into discussion here.

Slinking rejectedly out the door, looking back with a sly smile

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177887 07/24/03 12:28 PM
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DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
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I think that part of the issue of Axios commenting on things Catholic, besides the great things that Benedictine posted, here they are again.

Quote
Instead he sought to politicize the whole issue with his insistence about "pressure groups" with "rigid agendas" making unfounded "accusations" [shades of Hilary Clinton's vast right-wing conspiracy theories! ]. Of course none of these vague references were ever explained. However, I felt that they were aimed at me personally. I wished to communicate to Axios that I - as a monk and seminary professor with a Masters in Theology - do if fact know of what I speak.

Also, ISTM that Axios has a habit of posting curt responses in reaction to threads that are heading in directions he dislikes. IMO, he does not engage but rather attempts to close off further discussion with snappy, "know-it-all" retorts. Others, like Don, pull the "Eastern card" even in a forum like the Town Hall which I thought was more open-ended than the other topical fora.
But he did leave out the fact that Axios has chided Catholics for commenting on issues regarding the Orthodox Churches.

I don't seem to remember the out cry of the Orthodox defending the Catholics that made the comments as is happening here with Catholics jumping to the defense of Axios.

Makes ya wonder doesn't it.....


David

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177888 07/24/03 01:00 PM
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Columcille Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Don in Kansas:
Once again we have a thread that has nothing to do with Byzantine Christianity, nothing to do with Roman/Byzantine relations, nothing that should really concern us. Maybe we should just change the name of this forum to "The Roman Forum" and get it over with. Lately it seems we spend more time focusing on Roman issues that have nothing to with us, than we do our own concerns. It gets so very tiresome. As Steve so gently pointed out, there are numerous forums that discuss Roman issues from any point of view imaginable...why can't these posts be submitted there? Don
Perhaps your gripe should be directed at the originator of this thread, who ID's herself as a Byzantine Catholic.

Can't blame us Latins for this thread.

Columcille

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177889 07/24/03 03:12 PM
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Dear Steve,

You know I love and esteem you highly!

I think I'm undergoing an evolution in my own thinking about ROCOR as well . . .

Perhaps I'll visit Jordanville in August . . .

Ooooh, where's that alka-seltzer . . .? smile

Alex

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177890 07/24/03 04:44 PM
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Please forgive me, but I just must ask.

David, I must be denser than ususal this morning/afternoon, but I don't get it. What does what make ya wonder?

Defense? What defense?

Please help me understand the message that I'm missing.

Thanks,

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177891 07/24/03 04:52 PM
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Benedictine Offline
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Dear All,

After a few days break to reflect on things I’ve decided to come back to the forum to speak my peace (PAX get it! biggrin ).

In this post I want to do two things: 1) to explain my feelings that led me to react so strongly to Axios’ response and Steve’s intervention to my reply, and 2) to clearly explain what I meant in my initial post.

First, I must say that I found Axios rejoinder to be very frustrating, if not even somewhat demeaning. It is no fun to have one’s own words thrown back to you after a slight twisting of the original intent frown . It reminded me of the one-upmanship children sometimes employ when they argue: “Did so! Did not! You’re a ____! No, you are!”, etc. I must admit, much of my reply – including the unfortunate Orthodox/Catholic comment – was an attempt to return in kind what I received. In retrospect it was all very childish, and I am ashamed that I allowed myself to engage in such behavior.

Second, after looking at what I initially wrote, I can see where some can be quite innocently confused. When I spoke of abuse I was not talking about improprieties in liturgical practices per se but how liturgical norms are communicated to the faithful by those in roles of leadership and teaching. In other words, I was not saying that standing after reception of communion was a liturgical abuse, but that to badger people who freely choose to sit or kneel with the notion that they must comply with this option is a form of pastoral abuse.

Let me give you another example to further clarify what I meant. I know a man who was refused Holy Communion because he wished to receive on the tongue. The EEM told him that this was not permitted and that Vatican II said that you must receive in the hand. This is simply not true! The faithful legitimately have the option to receive whichever way they wish. Notice, I am NOT saying that communion in the hand is a liturgical abuse. It is in fact allowed and perfectly licit. But, you can not force a person to follow this preference and forbid him to do something that is equally valid. Needless to say, my friend never returned to that parish after being humiliated in the communion line by someone who was sadly misinformed about what is a required norm in the modern Roman liturgy and what is optional. This was my criticism of the document to which His daughter posted a link.

In fact, I believe the title of this thread is misleading. It should more properly be called “ Lotsa changes in store for [some] Roman Catholics ". In parishes that have not experimented with liturgical practices that were never approved or mandated {no matter how well intentioned}, there will be few changes that need to be made. For example, in our own monastic community the changes will barely affect us. And, yes we have the Mass of Vatican II. In fact Benedictines were at the forefront of liturgical renewal in its early days.

PAX

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177892 07/24/03 04:52 PM
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Dear Alex,

Thank you for your kind words:

"You know I love and esteem you highly!"

Of course you know that the sentiments are my own about you also!

Now, about that evolution....

Undergoing Evolution? YOY!

You'll turn into a Chardin-leaning tree hugger, yet! biggrin

You know how slippery that slope can be with just one little misstep. :rolleyes:

Did you find the alka-seltzer? Could you hand me a couple?

Basking in the light of love and esteem, cool

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177893 07/24/03 05:16 PM
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Dear Brother Elias,

Welcome back! I'm really glad to see you posting here again. Again, if some of my comments were a part of your decision to leave, please accept my apology for those words.

The words of explanation that you posted today are clear and state what is truly a pastoral abuse. Like all true abuses, situations like those you described should never happen. When they do, they should be dealt with directly and quickly, in my estimation.

The Benedictines are special to me for many reasons. One of the greatest is the leadership shown by Benedictines in the Liturgical Renewal in our Church.

The good zeal among monastics talked about by St. Benedict is apparent in your posting. Your words are a needed reminder to us all that even if we dot all of the i's and cross all the t's in our liturgical practices, if the Heart of the Good Shepherd is not present in the pastoral approach taken, it is for naught!

Thank you for that.

Welcome back home.

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177894 07/24/03 10:45 PM
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Anastasia Offline OP
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To All:

Please accept my apologies for originating this thread. I'm sorry it has caused so much conflict.

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177895 07/25/03 03:15 PM
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All's well that ends well!

And Bro. Elias, thanks for your equanimity!


AmdG

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177896 07/25/03 03:51 PM
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Theist Gal Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by His daughter:
To All:

Please accept my apologies for originating this thread. I'm sorry it has caused so much conflict.
No need to apologize. If the Administrators don't think a thread is valid, it is up to them to deal with it. Other opinions are just that -- opinions.

In my humble opinion. wink

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177897 07/25/03 06:25 PM
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Dear His Daughter,

I agree with Theist Gal. Beginning a thread is a perfectly good thing to do.

The responses are what the responders choose to say. If there is a major problem, the moderator or administrator usually steps in and modifies the course of the discussion.

You have done nothing to be sorry for. You've done something good, in my opinion. smile You've provided the opportunity to clarify an issue.

Steve

Re: Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics #177898 07/26/03 12:30 AM
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Axios Offline
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Dear Brother,

First let me say I am glad to have you back. Also, like the others, I deeply appreciate the contributions of the Benedictine Order not only to the Catholic liturgical renewal but its welcome contributions beyond the Catholic world.

I think your most recent post was very gracious and I would only hope I could be equally so.

I realize that in the two posts I made, the one or two sentences of each of them was too brief to fairly express the point I was trying to make.

It would have been better for me to give more emphasis to my comment "In addition...". I truly meant my post not as something contradicting your post, but adding to it.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. In the end, I think just as we might find ourselves misinterpeting each other, I think the incidents in parishes between individuals is too open to misunderstanding to make many conclusions by third parties very valuable. Maybe we can agree that Orthodox Christians like myself and mid-Missourians with vows of stability like yourself can leave this matter to various communities and give up on making universal conclusions.

Axios

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