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John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17910 06/29/05 03:49 PM
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Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17911 06/29/05 05:57 PM
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Miracles happening everywhere...
http://www.local6.com/news/4660011/detail.html

I read last week alone they received reports of posssible miracles.

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17912 06/29/05 06:33 PM
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Thanks, Alex and Pani Rose, for these websites. Wonderful!

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17913 06/29/05 07:06 PM
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Dear Friends,

As the Cause of Pope John Paul opened yesterday, does this mean he can be on the "fast-track" for beatification, perhaps even in the fall?

I can't imagine how many people will want to travel to Rome for Bl. John Paul the Great's beatification ceremony!

Also, is there a website that lists ALL the Saints and Blessed made so by John Paul the Great?

Alex

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17914 06/29/05 11:53 PM
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Hello

In the past the Catholic Church put enormous care in the procedures to examine if someone truly applied for sainthood. Catholic saints of the past were known to have given great aportations to Christianity, awesome theological virtues, miracles, undoubted orthodoxy or a great service to their Church. This is true for all the popes who were canonized in the past.

I would like to ask Catholics if you really think that John Paul II's pontificate was that succesful while it's evident that the Roman Church went through a serious crisis: massive defections and serious troubles with the clergy (specialy in America).

It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17915 06/30/05 02:04 AM
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In a sense, I have asked similar questions. I believe JPII was a holy and saintly man who reached out to the world and made the church better known. But he wasn't that great as an administrator or manager and he even alluded to that himself. But it seems to me that under JPII, everyone but the Vatican cleaning lady was declared a saint anyway. So I guess what's one more? wink biggrin

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17916 06/30/05 02:44 AM
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Dear Mexican you said:

It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say:

Actually I saw no charism in Pope John Paul II. How in the world can someone with such a delibitating illness have any charism? What I saw was 'heroic virtue' way beyond what any human being can possibly endure. It was torment merely to watch what John Paul II put himself through for the sake of humanity. Certainly he must have been God inspired.

...And certainly a saint in anyone's eyes and also a great Pope. He has changed the course of history.

In Christ,

Zenovia

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17917 06/30/05 02:55 AM
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Dear Byzantn you said:

But it seems to me that under JPII, everyone but the Vatican cleaning lady was declared a saint anyway. So I guess what's one more?

I say:

Pope John Paul II didn't pull these saints out of the air. Actually they had been sitting around waiting for canonization for years... decades and even centuries. As an example of the slow process at the Vatican, Joan of Arc was not canonized until the 1920's. Somehow I feel it had something to do with the miracles occuring in France during World War I.

There is a lot of work involved in the process of canonization, especially if it is someone that died centuries before. John Paul II decided to tackle the problem. Thankfully he is being rewarded for his work and being canonized quickly by Pope Benedict.

In Christ,

Zenovia

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17918 06/30/05 03:59 AM
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Zenovia wrote: Actually I saw no charism in Pope John Paul II. How in the world can someone with such a delibitating illness have any charism?

Dear Zenovia, Apparently you didn't see the "young" John Paul II 20 years ago in his prime.

I attended his Masses in San Antonio, Krakow, Skoczow, and Olomouc, and I was spiritually uplifted by his witness. I cannot think of any other living human being who has inspired me more.

I read that Pope Benedict wants now to slow down the process of canonization, which John Paul accelarated like no one before him.

One of the great deficiencies of Protestantism is that it has no saints. But I have known several in my life (though likely none of them will be canonized). I have known one very saintly RC bishop who, blinded in one eye by a burglar, forgave his assailant & did many other similar charitable acts. I pray to that bishop often now, as I do to John Paul II, for his intercession, for I am convinced he has his eternal reward. I was blessed to know some of the details of the bishop's humble life, but most did not know. Was he a saint? In my eyes, without doubt. The Roman Church, in its legalistic manner, makes it it into a very complicated procedure. But I do not wait for official canonization to ask for the intercession of saints I have knwon in my own life.

Stojgniev

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17919 06/30/05 11:26 AM
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John Paul II did accelerate the process of canonization and I have heard - don't really remember this personally - even changed the rules of the process. This probably allowed the canonization of some who might not have been canonized using the old rules, or at least not canonized at this time. The problem is that so many were canonized that the process now looks a bit suspect. Now we have hundreds of local saints who remain obscure to the church at large. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Catholics haven't even heard of most of them.

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17920 06/30/05 11:43 AM
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If one were to judge John Paul II of +eternal memory+ in part on the troubles in the Church in Western Europe, the United States and Latin America, then one must also judge him on his role in the end of Communism in Eastern Europe.

Those dioceses (I am referring to the Latin Church in particular) who actually listened to John Paul II are not the ones that have had the most problems. Rather, that is where the Church has blossomed.

Those dioceses with bishops with their own agendas by and large are the ones with the biggest problems.

True - JPII was not a great administrator, or even a good one. He was an evangelist. His writings and encyclicals were profound and prolific. How much JPII can be blamed for those who didn't listen to him and did what they wanted is a cause for serious discussion.

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17921 06/30/05 01:05 PM
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Dear Friends,

As for the many saints and blessed declared by St John Paul the Great - let's examine this in a different light, shall we?

The majority (90%+) of saints in the calendar are local saints.

From the beginning, the local Church in the person of the bishop declared local saints for local veneration - this is still the case throughout Orthodoxy.

In Greece, as I understand it, there are saints who are so in the opinion of a local village and perhaps in that of the next - but that is where the veneration stops. There are thousands of such, in fact.

And these local saints are known by the local people whose voice first canonized them ahead of the Church.

Rome has, since the 16th century, insisted that ONLY it has the right to beatify or canonize - even though local RC bishops in Europe have, since then, continued to beatify saints for their local dioceses and, later, Rome allowed their cult.

St John Paul the Great brought back a lot of the earlier tradition of the "local saint" by travelling throughout the world and bringing the Beatification and Canonization ceremony back to the local Church.

He was a church leader who was VERY conscious of history and traditional practice. In fact, his so-called "traditional RC" detractors, as we EC's know full well, aren't "traditional" at all - they're ecclesial memory only goes back to Trent and not sooner than the 13th century in western church history.

Moreover, Pope Benedict XVI is going even FURTHER along these lines by delegating local bishops to actually do the Beatifications! (This happened as recently as this week in Poland during a Congress where three Polish priests were beatified, one a martyr under soviet communism and the ceremony was conducted by bishops).

And when St John Paul the Great was in Ukraine five years ago, (and I don't think I've ever heard our EC stalwarts here mention this even once wink ), he simply was present for the declaration of the New Martyrs et al. as saints by the UGCC!

(The majority of those beatified by the late Pope were Martyrs - nothing suspect about that as the early Church often included THOUSANDS of martyrs in her calendar, just as soon as they were killed - in the Greek Church, St George of Ioannina, I believe, was slowly being tortured by his executioner as the Litia service was being conducted in the Church. A boy at the front door kept watch as the Priest read out the names of the Saints . . . as St George's head came off, the boy shouted out loud 'George is dead!' at which moment the Priest ended the Litia service with the words 'and of the Holy New Martyr George of Ioannina and all Thy Saints, Amen!'

Add to this the fact that over the years the canonization process in Rome has become rather scandalous in terms of the large sums of money required to "scientifically prove" a miracle - effectively punishing poor Catholic countries that could not raise the sums for their saintly candidates.

No, as someone who has studied hagiography for quite a few years now, I APPLAUD St John Paul the Great's iniatives in this respect - also those of Pope Benedict, his successor.

Alex

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17922 06/30/05 01:24 PM
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Dear Mexican,

You are probably the ONLY Mexican who is not enthusiastic about John Paul the Great! wink

The WORLD acknowledges him as a great peace-maker.

When he was here in Toronto for World Youth Day, I saw Mormons open up refreshment stands for the Catholic pilgrims.

I saw Jews, Muslims and Hindus go to see the Pope (who acknowledged their presence and thanked them for coming).

My uncle, a non-practicing Jew, asked me if one needed to be a Catholic to go to see the Pope - I told him that everyone is invited.

He told me that he not only respected the Pope but also the many Catholic pilgrims because "they have a strong faith."

I've never heard him speak like that before, ever.

No, what we had in Rome was a truly great saint.

And, most importantly, the "litmus test" for his true orthodoxy was his GREAT devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.

Before he ascended to the Throne of Peter, I thought the Roman Catholic church had forgotten all about Marian devotion.

He restored that in a large way, as he should have.

Again, traditional RC detractors of the Pope like to use St Louis de Montfort as their, forgive me, "poster boy."

And Pope John Paul the Great was one of the most earnest students of Montfort and wanted to declare him a Doctor of the Church.

There was no one who was more devoted to the Rosary - and yet Society of St Piux X types ATTACK him for bringing in the luminous mysteries.

Their argument? That those mysteries take away from Mary . . .

What stupidity and nonsense! Do these people have brains?!

Anyway, everyone have a nice day, y'hear? smile

"Pray unto God for us, O Holy Father, John Paul the Great, pleasing to God, for we earnestly approach you as to our speedy helper and intercessor for the salvation of our souls. Amen!"

Alex

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17923 06/30/05 01:35 PM
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I would still like to see JPIIs canonization put aside for a few years. Right now, it's too influenced by the hype and hysteria evident in some of the posts here. If the original rules were enforced, in 5 years a rational examination could be made, and it would be more difficult for anyone to say he was canonized based on charisma and personality. There's no question that the man lived a saintly and exemplary life, and it's clear that he suffered greatly in his later years. Right now, there's just too much emotion and hysteria for any kind of rational examination to take place. This certainly takes nothing away from him, I just don't think it's the right time.

Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site #17924 06/30/05 02:04 PM
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Dear Charles,

I hope I don't come across as being "hyped" up about Saint John Paul the Great, Pope of Rome, Teacher of the Universal Church! wink

But there is nothing wrong about Rome beatifying him, even as early as October, to allow the many millions of Catholics to liturgically venerate him.

His canonization will doubtless take years.

His veneration is already occurring and it is the people of God who are demanding, calling on Rome to simply approve of what they are already doing.

Vox populi, Vox Dei, that sort of thing.

This veneration is leading people to live better Christian lives, to participate in the life of worship in the Church, to read the Pope's encyclicals and the Catholic Catechism, to pray the Rosary (oh, all right, now you're really turned off! wink )

The early Church, in fact, set no time limits on these sorts of things - it was and is led by the Spirit.

This reminds me of an Anglo-Catholic who once said, "If the Spirit is telling us that full Catholic unity is to be achieved in union with the Pope of Rome - then who are we to accuse the Spirit of 'bad theology?'"

It is the Holy Spirit who will lead the Church to do what HE wants done with the memory of Pope John Paul II.

That's quite sufficient for me!

Alex

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