The Holy Father, continuing his ecumencial and interfaith ministry, has once again invited leaders of various religious communities -- Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, and others -- to join him in prayer and devotion to our God. The convocation will once again be in Assisi, this year on January 24. His Holiness has asked the world religious leaders to particularly join him in a common mission for peace in the world.

More details are, predictably, available in the most recent fundraising solicitation of the Society of Pius X.

Dear Kurt,

Very good . . .

This reminds me of a tract published in the seventeenth century by a Puritan to discredit the semi-monastic Anglican foundation at Little Gidding led by Nicholas Ferrar.

The tract detailed all of the "Popish" practices the community participated in: Canonical Hours, recitation of the Psalter twice each day etc.

The thing is this tract provides the best possible description of this amazing Anglican community that we will ever have.

God bless,

Alex

A question:

Do any of the Forum members believe the Catholic Church could ever accommodate itself to an "Islamic Rite" that would adhere strictly to the dogmas of the Catholic Church but would, in its worship and prayer life and some traditions and customs, retain much of its Islamic flavor (with obvious deletions, such as Muhammed's claims to be a prophet and the last messenger and seal of Allah.) Also, would we be able to retain our architecture, both interior and exterior, as well as decline to adopt the veneration of statues, icons, etc., which has no place within Islamic spirituality?

Could "Islamic Catholic Christians" still embrace the Heavenly Father through the "Name of Allah," and would these believers be allowed a married priesthood?

Finally: Would any of the Forum members be able to recommend a book or books on the life of Charles de Foucauld (spelling:?)?

God is Great!

Abdur

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: anastasios ]

Abdur,

Good questions, really, as the church has always sought to inculturate and serve all peoples.

Assyrian Christians don't use many icons. You have to profess they're valid, but they are not an integral part of worship like in our Byzantine or Latin Churches. I would say that venerating relics has a place in Sufi spirituality, as I saw with my own eyes the tomb of Nizammudin and Amir Khusro in New Delhi, where people placed flowers on his tomb, kissed (painted) pictures of him, etc.

Coptic Churches look very much like your places of worship, because actually the Muslims borrowed heavily from Coptic and Byzantine architecture. So yes, I would say a group of Muslims who became Catholic could make a temple that looks like a mosque, but with an altar to celebrate the liturgy.

Married priesthood? Yes.

Refer to God as Allah and by his 99 names? Don't see why not, IF we are also accepting that Jesus Christ is the RUH ALLAH in the fullest sense of the word (IE uncreated).

My prayers for you on your journey.

anastasios

Abdur,

Interesting question.

Islamic prayer forms are similar to Byzantine forms, especially during those many Lenten prostrations. I'm not too sure who borrowed from who though.

"Allah" is already being used as a name for the one God by Eastern Christians.

As for a lack of iconography, the Latin Church may serve as a current example that this can happen. Though I think the Islamic Rite should not consider it wrong. This would be akin to some Eastern Churches not having the words of Institution. Is it necessary? No. Should these churches and the Latin Church consider each other in error? No.

Islamic art is inspirational in its own right.

Abdur,
While what you suggest would be great, I do not believe it would be possible.

The basic statement of faith for a muslim, "There is no god apart from God, and Muhammad is the Messenger of God", would be at odds with the Catholic Church. As Muhammad is not a prophet and while God is one there is the Trinity.

If we could get past these things how could we keep an "Islamic flavor" as you put it? The Qur'an would not be a book of scripture as the canon of public revelation is closed and there is much against Christianity and Catholicism within the pages of the Qur'an.

We must look to the Five Pillars of Islam.

1) Faith: There is no god worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger.

This would have to be rewritten.

2) Prayer: Salat is the name for the obligatory prayers which are performed five times a day, and are a direct link between the worshipper and God. There is no hierarchical authority in Islam, and no priests, so the prayers are led by a learned person who knows the Qur'an, chosen by the congregation. These five prayers contain verses from the Qur'an, and are said in Arabic, the language of the Revelation, but personal supplication can be offered in one's own language.

Not to sure about this but there seems to be a heavy reliance on the Qur'an here. Also the emphsis on Arabic. Also the lack of the hierarchical authority would be a great thing to overcome, IMHO.

3) The Zakat: One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakat means both 'purification' and 'growth'. Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need, and, like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.

I think this one would be able to stay and is a good thing that we all should try to do. But I see an idea here that many of our protestant brothers share. If we give then God will give to us more. That is not why we should give, again IMHO.

4) The Fast: Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from first light until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations.

I see nothing wrong with this, as each of the Churches of the Catholic Church has their own fasting regulations and traditions. But I think some of Ramadan would have to change as, isn't one of the nights a celebration the the revelation of the Qur'an.

5) Pilgrimage (Hajj): The annual pilgrimage to Makkah - the Hajj - is an obligation only for those who are physically and financially able to perform it.

Not to sure on this on, as Makkah wouldn't have any relevance with out Muhammad, would it?


In Christ,
David

[ 01-09-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear Brother Abdur,
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

An "Islamic Rite" within the Church of Christ is most definitely a possibility!!

As a matter of fact, His Holiness the current Pope said as much to a group of Muslims earlier in his pontificate, referring to the openness of the Church to Muslim prayer forms etc.

As Edwin said, Arabic Christians already refer to God as "Allah."

There are two historical Christian groups that adopted Muslim traditions, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Templar Knights.

The Knights adopted the five-fold daily prayer of Islam, for example.

The Islamic influence on Ethiopian Christianity is also well-noted, after all, Muhammad (PBUH)had a very warm relationship with the Abyssinian Christians and told his followers to leave them alone.

There is actually very little about Islam and Muslim religious practices that could not be adopted by a Muslim Christian community.

The practice of daily prayer with prostrations on a prayer rug is something that many Eastern Christians certainly do. Old Believer Russian Orthodox believers often bring a "poddruchnik" or mat/pillow withe them to Church to make prostrations on them.

Prayer beads are common to both traditions, to be sure!

Pilgrimages? Eastern Christians love them. To this day, Greek Orthodox Christians who make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem prefix their names with "Hatzi" as I do "Hatzi-Alexander." This of course comes from "Hajj" in Arabic.

Muslims already participated in the celebrations at various Christian shrines.

The Muslim style of architecture is glorious and most beautiful. It is largely incorporated into the Mozarabic Rite of Spain, as well.

And since "Muslim" has to do with being submissive to God, hopefully Christians are that as well.

Can one interpret the Koran in an "Old Testament" way? Some Christian scholars believe so.

In the Greek and other Churches, iconographic representations of Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and the other Greek philosophers (including Alexander the Great whose local cult in Ethiopia is also attributed to Muslim influence) are to be found in Churches, without haloes, of course, and there is no liturgical cult associated with them. But they are there as having "prepared the way for Christ."

The Venerable Charles de Foucald is a great saint who did much to reach out to Muslims.

If you would privately send me a mailing address, I would be pleased to send you a gift of a book on him.

You have made me so happy today, Abdur and may Allah cover you with the mantle of His Protection now and always!

Alex

David,

Please read Abdur's post again. He mentions accepting the dogmas of the Catholic Church, but retaining Islamic traditions/customs.

Anyway, after telling Abdur that this was not possible, you contradict yourself:

1. Faith: Must be rewritten? Abdur's Islamic Rite accepts Catholic dogmas though.
2. Prayer: Not sure?
3. Zakat: Might be able to stay?
4. Fast: Nothing wrong?
5. Pilgrimage: Not sure?

With your not-to-sure responses, how can you conclude that it would be impossible?

Your right Edwin, I am unsure, but I am leaning to the No side of the fence.

I lean this way because of the Qur'an. Can you really have anying thing in common with Islam with out the Qur'an?

I have to disagree with Alex and his comment Can one interpret the Koran in an "Old Testament" way? Some Christian scholars believe so.

What do Catholic scholars say on this? Public revelation was closed with Christ. How can we interpret something from the New Tesament time period as an Old Testament?

Anyways, this is just my opinion, that I have developed with dialouge with Muslims.

I pray to God that I am wrong and this does come about.

In Christ,
David

Dear David,

I made no personal statement on the Koran, just said what some Catholic scholars on Islam have said.

In any case, this is not about changing or adding anything to Christianity, as Edwin said.

The Koran addresses itself to a largely pagan people. It brought them out of paganism to faith in One God and other positive aspects which the Catholic Church has said is worthy of respect (as it has said so about other faiths).

Have a look again at Vatican II on this subject.

Already in the New Testament in the Acts of the Apostles there were two "Rites" among the Christians, one a Judaic Rite in Jerusalem and the other being developed by non-Jewish converts.

Also, to quote from St Thomas Aquinas, "All truth, nomatter who speaks it, comes from the Holy Spirit."

Alex

In the Name of God....

DavidB is correct. I was really overreaching reality on that issue.

However, Islamic mysticism (Sufism) has its own unique Jesus tradition, including our own concepts of Christianity, Church, even monasticism, etc.

Al'hamdu"llah, we should be grateful to Allah for those gifts and remain loyal to the straight path bequethed to us by our ancestors and the martyrs of the Way. Allah knows what is best for our souls.

Insha'llah, on the Great Day of Judgement, ever soul shall be transparent and all shall be revealed.

(Alex: Thank you for your generous offer, but I should be grateful for what I was born to be.)


Abdur

Dear Abdur,

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

May God bless you in all that you do!

Alex