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#181068 - 07/05/03 11:04 AM Denial of Communion
John K Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
Please see the following article from my local paper. I'm having problems squaring what we (Eastern Catholic) believe about the Eucharist with this kind of belief in the Eucharist. John.
-------------------------------------------------
Bitter Test Of Family Faith
Disabled Girl Has First Communion After Two Refusals

July 5, 2003
By FRANCES GRANDY TAYLOR, Courant Staff Writer

WETHERSFIELD -- When Alexandra Habesch turned 12, her parents felt it was time she prepare for her First Holy Communion, as her older and younger brothers had done at their church in Wethersfield.

For Alex, and others with disabilities, such milestones have even greater meaning. She has cerebral palsy, is legally blind and has some cognitive deficiency as a result of being born prematurely. Alex, a student in special education and mainstream classes at Highcrest Elementary School in Wethersfield, had attended Corpus Christi Church with her family since she was an infant.

"Of all the people in my immediate family, my daughter is the one who enjoys church the most," said Liz Habesch, Alex's mother. "She sings, she's happy, she is joyful there."

So Alex's parents were shocked this spring when their priest refused to let her receive her First Communion.

Though Alex does not speak, her parents said, she can understand.

"She is amazingly aware. ... To look at her, you wouldn't think so, but she comprehends quite a bit. There is a lot there," her mother said, explaining that Alex can respond to simple commands by lifting her head or grunting or using her hands.

"She talks to us and we talk to her, and she answers us. She understands us. She knows when she's naughty," said Alex's father, Najib Habesch. "She knows when she wants something [and] how to get it."

Alex had regularly attended the Saturday Mass at Corpus Christi with her parents. One day, the deacon of the church suggested it was time for her to receive First Communion.

"It was something we had always wanted to do, but we just hadn't got around to it," her father said, adding that the deacon's suggestion "gave us the incentive to pursue it."

But the Rev. Thomas B. Campion told them he would not prepare Alex for Communion.

"He was actually rather quick to say that he wouldn't do it, because she doesn't understand what the Holy Eucharist is, and she doesn't have sin," Najib Habesch said. "I said, `You have totally disappointed us,' and that is where the conversation ended."

Last week Campion said he believed that because of Alex's disabilities, there was some question whether she could understand the Eucharist.

"She's an angel," Campion said. "There is no way she could commit sin. She really doesn't need the Eucharist."

But Campion's decision was especially painful, Liz Habesch said, because he was the priest who had married the couple and had baptized Alex in her incubator in the neonatal intensive care unit at Hartford Hospital. During his weekly rounds, he visited Alex during the four months she spent in intensive care, Liz Habesch said.

"We were floored," she said. "Our first thought was, `How can this man deny this child her right to the sacrament, when he saw, on a weekly basis, how she struggled to be in this world?' Her prognosis was not good. It's really amazing she's here."

The Habesches' hurt and anger became a quest to have Alex prepared for Communion.

"Why should she be denied her religion when she has been denied so much already?" her mother said, referring to the limitations Alex's disability imposes. "Especially when our spirituality is what has gotten us through what we went through with our daughter. And for them to just let us down, I can't explain the feeling. We truly felt as if we lost a friend, a really good friend."

Seth English, the deacon at Corpus Christi who had first suggested the Communion to the family, tried to help by calling another Wethersfield church, where the family's request was also turned down. English did not return phone calls.

"I think once they heard Father Campion said no, they don't like to step on each other's toes," Liz Habesch said.

Campion said he felt that having Alex receive Communion would have been more for her parents than for her. For him, he said, it was "a theological issue, not an emotional issue."

But her parents believe Alex's spiritual needs are just like anyone else's.

"We are absolutely convinced that in her own way, she understands what is going on when she is in church, that she is touched by the hand of God," her father said. "She reacts to it, like there is something there."

The Habesch family is not the first to face rejection in an attempt to gain full participation in the church for a disabled person. But changes in Roman Catholic Church policy have evolved to specifically call for greater inclusion of people with mental and physical disabilities.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops first approved a pastoral statement on people with disabilities in 1978, which was revised in 1988. In 1995, the Committee on Pastoral Practices issued "Guidelines for the Celebration of the Sacraments with Persons with Disabilities," which provides details concerning access for the disabled.

"Just as the Church must do all in its power to help ensure people with disabilities a secure place in the human community, so it must reach out to welcome gratefully those who seek to participate in the ecclesial [church] community," the pastoral statement reads in part.

The National Catholic Office for Persons with Disabilities was established in 1982, and charged with helping dioceses and parishes implement the guidelines established by the bishops.

Among the criteria, the guidelines say a person receiving Communion must be able to distinguish the Eucharist from ordinary food. But it says "cases of doubt should be resolved in favor of the right of the baptized person to receive the sacrament. The existence of a disability is not considered in and of itself as disqualifying a person from receiving the Eucharist."

The Rev. Joseph C. Gengras, retired pastor of Sacred Heart Church in Bloomfield, helped to found the National Catholic Office For Persons with Disabilities and worked for many years with the Association for Retarded Citizens. The Father Gengras Center for Justice for People with Disabilities was founded three years ago under the auspices of ARC.

"Our whole purpose was to bring the sacraments to people who have a right to them," Gengras said of the National Catholic Office, which distributes information to dioceses concerning disability issues.

"We've tried to bring this to the attention of parishes, parish councils, religious educators," said Gengras, who added that children like Alex can learn with their parents as an example. "In my experience, through conversation and example we can be sure the Lord is with them. I think it's an issue of justice."

Alex finally received her First Communion a few weeks ago during a Mass at St. Francis Xavier Church in Hunt Valley, Md. With the Habesch family in town for a family wedding, the Rev. Jeffrey Dauses conducted the ceremony during a Sunday Mass. Alex was prepared for Communion using songs and stories, Dauses said.

"It was extremely uplifting and inspiring," said Dauses, recalling that parishioners later told him they were moved by the ceremony. "They felt honored they could be a part of the Mass where she received her First Communion."

For her parents, it was all they had hoped for. "It was beyond description. It was just incredibly meaningful. When you have a child with special needs, to have them finally have a day of their own, and have it be so unbelievably special," Liz Habesch said, becoming tearful.

"The ceremony was more than we expected," she said. "It just restored our faith in the church, you know?"

Najib Habesch said that he and his family have not returned to Corpus Christi, but have been attending the Church of the Incarnation in Wethersfield. He said they were telling their story to raise awareness, so others will not have the same experience.

"Our objective on harping on this whole thing is not to punish anybody," he said, "but to change the behavior that we experienced, because it's wrong, it's hurtful and it turns people off the Catholic Church."

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#181069 - 07/05/03 11:13 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7168
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
If the child would have been communicated upon his baptism as in the Byzantine tradition, he would have been receiving all along and likely this wouldn't have happened.

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#181070 - 07/05/03 11:26 AM Re: Denial of Communion
CopticOrthodox Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diak:
If the child would have been communicated upon his baptism as in the Byzantine tradition, he would have been receiving all along and likely this wouldn't have happened.
I took an RC friend to see one of our larger Churches in the area, and he was surpised to see toddlers being Communicated. He said I guess they're old enough to tell the difference from normal bread... but I don't know. I reminded him that we Communicate infants, and he was surpised to learn that that mean everyone in between too... he thought it was just once after Baptism and then not again until "the age of reason". I don't understand the western hang-up on having to understand in order to participate. While faith is important, Communion is what It is regardless of our believe, and there's no reason It can't give life to someone who is too simple to understand. Aren't we called to have faith like children after all?

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#181071 - 07/05/03 11:38 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Diak:
If the child would have been communicated upon his baptism as in the Byzantine tradition, he would have been receiving all along and likely this wouldn't have happened.
Yes Diak - point well taken.

I think this was disgraceful. Over here I don't think it would have happened - at least I hope it would not. We do have in each Diocese an RE programme for people who have handicaps - of any sort.

I have seen children unable to speak , living in wheelchairs or trolley beds making their First Communion with their friends and these children have been able to understand , through the fantastic teaching they have had, exactly Who they are Receiving in Communion.

Our Parish has 2 SPRED [ SPecial ReligiousEDucation] groups - each member has 2 helpers. Two of them are blind, some can only make sounds, some are fairly severely mentally handicapped, 3 of them are in wheelchairs - but the joy on their faces at Mass is wonderful to see - and their enthusiasm when we have a SPRED Mass which they prepare is a sheer joy.

There are things about the SPRED Mass that some people would say is wrong - the Readings are acted out by them as they are Read by their leaders , the Gospel is interpreted for them, they choose their favourite hymns [ whether appropriate or not wink ] They bring the gifts to the Altar and as well as the Wine and Bread they bring things that have meaning for them - flowers etc. One of them is always so Hungry to Receive that she runs to the Priest for Communion and says 'Thank you God' afterwards - and we can all hear her.

These people should be welcomed with joy - they in their way can teach us a lot.

Didn't Christ say something about little children coming to Him ?

An irritated Anhelyna

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#181072 - 07/05/03 12:03 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Fr. Mike Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 83
Loc: clinton, MS
I'm constantly amazed when I read of churches who do not communicate children. When I prepare a couple's child for baptism I always ask them if they would like to have the child make their first communion at the same time. 99.9% say yes and it is amazing to watch these babies turn into toddlers and come to the rail each week for communion. Eventually they refuse to receive communion by the spoon and stick out their hands.

I agree with the others on this list that had the child been communicated at baptism, none of this stuff would have happened.

Fr. Mike
A Reuthenian of the Episcopal persuasion
Episcopal Church of the Mediator
Meridian, Mississippi

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#181073 - 07/07/03 11:16 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Andrew J. Rubis Offline
Member

Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 1208
Loc: Philadelphia
When we communicate the people in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the clergy offering the eucharist says:

"The servant of God, N., receives the precious body and blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting"

So, even if the child were to have no sins (which is a soteriological impossibility since only Christ is sinless), they would still need the eucharist for "life everlasting."

Even more so, the eucharist is offered and received as a community. It is not the offering from or gift for any one person. In this model, those who understand the faith make the offering on the part of those who don't because of infancy or mental incapacity.

In Christ,
Andrew

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#181074 - 07/07/03 12:08 PM Re: Denial of Communion
John K Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
Thanks Andrew! My point exactly. Also--a quick read of St John's gospel--the 6th chapter, paint a similar picture as well. It's also reiterated in the prayer before communion: "which I pray, make me worthy to recieve for the remission of all my sins and for life everlasting. Amen." This parish is not a traditionalist-type parish either. I've been there serveral times over my years in the area. It seems ludicrous for the priest to react like this. And in my book--HE isn't holding a completely Catholic view of the Eucharist.

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#181075 - 07/07/03 08:28 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Dr John Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1394
Loc: Falls Church, Virginia
St. Thomas Aquinas composed a beautiful hymn: "O Esca Viatorum, O Panis Angelorum" that represents a traditional, medieval RC perspective.

"O food of pilgrims, o bread of angels".

If you're on the pilgrimage home to the Father, then you need the food. Period. It is the absolutely quintessential element of being a Christian - sins or not, worthy or not.

Blessings!

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#181076 - 07/07/03 08:37 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7168
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
In the current Ukrainian usage the priest communicates the child the first time by saying "Taste and see how good the Lord is".

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#181077 - 07/08/03 03:49 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Diak:
In the current Ukrainian usage the priest communicates the child the first time by saying "Taste and see how good the Lord is".
How wonderful - and how accurate.

I know I just can't understand why we deny this most wonderful Gift to little ones.

[ And when I have mentioned my thoughts during our liturgy group meetings in the past , the eyes that open and the shock that I see at the thought that a child need Spiritual Food for their growth - aaaargh when will I learn to keep my big mouth shut ]

But at least we do have SPRED and I have never heard of a handicapped child being denied Communion here.

Anhelyna

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#181078 - 07/08/03 07:00 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Joseph Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 6
Loc: USA
As to infant communion:
Jesus said to "Take eat..." not take understand.

Jesus aslo said that eating His flesh and drinking His blood was necessary to have life within us. He made no exception for children.

If baptism is a rebirth in Christ what mother gives birth to a child and then denies it nurishment?

Perhaps one of the reasons that when many of our children become young adults they have much trouble practicing the faith is that when we started to teach them they were already malnurished souls.

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#181079 - 07/09/03 03:41 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Well, look, it's easy to criticize another tradition. But isn't the whole point of this forum to provide a place for people like me (R.C.'s) to learn to appreciate and respect your tradition? So why do I keep running across threads like this denigrating and putting down MY tradition?

There are reasons why the R.C. does not give the Eucharist to babies and little children till they reach a certain age. I understand that the Eastern Churches do not agree with those reasons, and that's fine. We are approaching the situation from two different points of view, and should be trying to understand each other, not condemn or criticize.

As for this particular situation, obviously the first priest was mistaken in his judgment, and the situation was corrected. Glad to see it.

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#181080 - 07/09/03 04:08 PM Re: Denial of Communion
DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic Offline
novice O.Carm.
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 910
Loc: Washington, DC
Quote:
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Well, look, it's easy to criticize another tradition. But isn't the whole point of this forum to provide a place for people like me (R.C.'s) to learn to appreciate and respect your tradition? So why do I keep running across threads like this denigrating and putting down MY tradition?

There are reasons why the R.C. does not give the Eucharist to babies and little children till they reach a certain age. I understand that the Eastern Churches do not agree with those reasons, and that's fine. We are approaching the situation from two different points of view, and should be trying to understand each other, not condemn or criticize.

As for this particular situation, obviously the first priest was mistaken in his judgment, and the situation was corrected. Glad to see it.
Theist Gal,
While you have a point, it is very limited in this respect as the Eurcharist is much more than "jsut a point of view".

Also there is the fact that at one poing in history the whole Church communed infants. It wasn't until the Western Church took a turn towards scholastism in their Theology that this changed.


David

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#181081 - 07/09/03 04:10 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22291
Loc: Canada
Dear Theist Doll,

Actually, the ancient practice of the Latin Church WAS to communicate children - the sacraments of initiation, Baptism, Chrismation and Communion were ALWAYS given at the same time.

The RC Church insists on preparation before Communion and that is a separate issue from this one, I think.

It was telling that this RC priest feels that Communion is a kind of completion of the Sacrament of Confession or Reconciliation (i.e. "she's an angel, she has no sin.")

This reflects some faulty RC theology, the view that holiness is a state of sinlessness or something like that and not, as the East believes, the actual presence and activity in us of the Holy Trinity, especially through Holy Communion.

I'm not denigrating the RC Church.

Just that priest . . .

Alex

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#181082 - 07/09/03 04:28 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7168
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Dear Thiest Gal, perhaps you don't know but Anhelyna above is herself a living Saint of the Roman Church...and has spoken from her perspective most articulately (as always) biggrin

I didn't mean to say anything offensive, and I really don't see anything very denegrating above but just rather an attempt to try and grasp the situation and mentality from Eastern Christian perspecitves.

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#181083 - 07/09/03 05:25 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Well, okay, I don't have any problem with a discussion about the differences in the way the Sacraments are administered in different traditions.

However, my point is that this story, as I read it, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's proper to give the Eucharist to babies or small children. It has to do with a priest who did not -- as is stated in the story itself --properly follow the Church's guidelines about giving the Sacraments to the disabled.

Yet *all* the comments which followed all deal with the former rather than the latter. And, well, call me overly defensive, but to describe the R.C.'s longstanding practice as just "a western hang-up," I just gotta step in and say something in my beloved Rite's defense! I mean, how would you feel if I described something in your tradition as "an Eastern hang-up"? eek

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#181084 - 07/09/03 05:33 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Diak:
Dear Thiest Gal, perhaps you don't know but Anhelyna above is herself a living Saint of the Roman Church...and has spoken from her perspective most articulately (as always) biggrin
I didn't mean to say anything offensive, and I really don't see anything very denegrating above but just rather an attempt to try and grasp the situation and mentality from Eastern Christian perspecitves.
Argh Diak - I'm blushing like mad.

Actually it was Sharon who set me off on this a long while back - when she spoke of her little one's Baptism and described this little one full of Mama's milk and then full of Jesus and then, if I remember correctly, he fell asleep wink

Someone else also [ possibly Sharon again - it sounds like her wink ] commented that we give children Physical food for their very physical bodies so why should they not have spiritual food also and this really hit home.

Our handicapped kiddies and adults are treated as real people and do appreciate more , I suspect, than we give them credit for. I do know the Sacrament of Reconciliation is altered for them - but I don't know the details.

Yes our Children are prepared for their first Holy Communion - and indeed most of them are now Confirmed before they are Communed [ we are still in a catching up process there wink ] First Confession may be as long as 1 year before Communion , but it should be closer soon - as proposed at present, it will be Confirmation, First Confession and First Holy Communion within one Academic year.

It would be nice to see all three Sacraments of Initiation given as babies are Baptised - but being realistic I think that is a long way off frown - after all we do it for Aduilts entering the Church - so why not ?

Another point I would like to make here - yes I am Latin and I enjoy being here [ well most of the time biggrin ] and I think these frank exchanges of views are good for all of us - we learn about each other and argue our standpoints. The amazing thing is that we never know how something we have said about a subject affects another person and causes them to think , and just maybe ,change their point of view.

Sorry about the length of this - thanks for putting up with it and hopefully reading it

Anhelyna

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#181085 - 07/09/03 05:36 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Well, okay, I don't have any problem with a discussion about the differences in the way the Sacraments are administered in different traditions.

However, my point is that this story, as I read it, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's proper to give the Eucharist to babies or small children. It has to do with a priest who did not -- as is stated in the story itself --properly follow the Church's guidelines about giving the Sacraments to the disabled.

Yet *all* the comments which followed all deal with the former rather than the latter. And, well, call me overly defensive, but to describe the R.C.'s longstanding practice as just "a western hang-up," I just gotta step in and say something in my beloved Rite's defense! I mean, how would you feel if I described something in your tradition as "an Eastern hang-up"? eek
Theist Gal

<<"an Eastern hang-up"? >>

Oh it's been done - plenty of times I assure you, and then they just laugh and then agree to differ.

Anhelyna

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#181086 - 07/09/03 05:40 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:

Oh it's been done - plenty of times I assure you, and then they just laugh and then agree to differ.

Anhelyna
Oh ... okay ... biggrin biggrin biggrin I agree to differ ... if y'all do too! wink

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#181087 - 07/09/03 06:43 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
How can anyone "understand" the Most Holy Eucharist?

I know a lot of adults and teens who reached the "age of reason" and later left the Church.

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#181088 - 07/09/03 06:49 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by J Thur:
How can anyone "understand" the Most Holy Eucharist?

I know a lot of adults and teens who reached the "age of reason" and later left the Church.
Joe - you are so right.

I certainly don't - I find It Awesome.

And I will never understand

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#181089 - 07/09/03 06:51 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Originally posted by J Thur:
How can anyone "understand" the Most Holy Eucharist?
I think there's a misunderstanding here - obviously no one ever completely "understands" the Holy Eucharist. The object of the catechesis is simply to make sure the child understands that she is about to receive something very special - not just a piece of bread and a sip of wine, but Jesus Christ Himself in a very special way.

(And as I recall from my own pre-First Communion preparations, it's also to make sure the child doesn't do anything to make S'ter blow her top during Mass! wink )

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#181090 - 07/09/03 06:51 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Yet *all* the comments which followed all deal with the former rather than the latter. And, well, call me overly defensive, but to describe the R.C.'s longstanding practice as just "a western hang-up," I just gotta step in and say something in my beloved Rite's defense! I mean, how would you feel if I described something in your tradition as "an Eastern hang-up"? eek
TG,

My wife and I became godparents for our friend's son. At 8yrs old he just received Confirmation prior to receiving his first Communion. Eventually, the Latin Catholic diocese here is intending to merge all three initiation sacraments as practiced in the Eastern (and ancient) churches.

Joe

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#181091 - 07/09/03 07:09 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Originally posted by J Thur:
TG,

My wife and I became godparents for our friend's son. At 8yrs old he just received Confirmation prior to receiving his first Communion. Eventually, the Latin Catholic diocese here is intending to merge all three initiation sacraments as practiced in the Eastern (and ancient) churches.

Joe
Hmm -- are they just doing this on their own or have they received permission to do so from their Bishop? If the latter, that's great, but if they're just making up their own rules, well, I would be a little concerned.

By the way, I don't mean to sound so cranky today, but my boss has been forcing Starbucks(tm) down my throat all day and I'm a little nnnneerrrrvoouuusss!! biggrin

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#181092 - 07/09/03 07:57 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Hmm -- are they just doing this on their own or have they received permission to do so from their Bishop? If the latter, that's great, but if they're just making up their own rules, well, I would be a little concerned.
TG,

See my earlier thread on this:

http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000685

Cantor Joe Thur

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#181093 - 07/09/03 08:28 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
QUAM SINGULARI: Decree of the Sacred Congregation of the Discipline of the Sacraments on First Communion (August 8, 1910).

This decree was written to counter the growing 'abuse' of postponing First Communion in the Latin Church until the age of maturity, not the age of reason.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWFIRST.htm

A close reading will show that infant communion was a practice of the Latin Church and that Trent had no intentions of ridding of it, but instead, tried to remedy a mandatory minimum age to receive it since it became a custom to postpone it. Unfortunately, the remedy for some became the norm for all. Trying to understand what the age of reason is is as difficult in trying to understand what the Eucharist is.

Today, a study of returning to earlier customs (infant communion) is taking place in the Latin Catholic Church. My son has been communicating at the Latin parochial school since kindergarten, and this has only helped educate fellow Latins with the reality of where they may be headed.

Joe

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#181094 - 07/09/03 08:38 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Hi, Joe - -

I just looked up the source of the link you provided, and was disturbed to see that the Administrator of the "Pax et Veritas" site makes the following statement:

Quote:
I am; a Traditional Roman Catholic; holding to the sede vacantist ethic ( Pope Pius XII was the last true Pope.
This would seem to disqualify him as a source of valid, official information about the Catholic Church. In my humble opinion. smile

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#181095 - 07/09/03 09:00 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Joe T Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 2927
Loc: Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
This would seem to disqualify him as a source of valid, official information about the Catholic Church. In my humble opinion. smile
TG,

I changed it to another link. The text, QUAM SINGULARI, is still the same no matter who links to it. Don't know what the pax et veritas site is about. Sorry.

John Cardinal Wright once wrote about the decree:

"The Decree Quam Singulari, in treating the age at which children are to be initiated into their post-baptismal sacramental life, had to face (as had a decree on frequent Communion by the Sacred Congregation of the Council, five years before) certain doctrinal and ascetical errors that had become deeply rooted in Catholic life at the opening of the century, at least in some parts of the world. One of these was the pretense that a greater discretion is required for first Communion than for first Confession. This, like most of the other errors, was rooted in Jansenism: for example, one was the idea that to receive first Holy Communion requires a nearly complete knowledge of the Articles of Faith and, therefore, an extraordinary preparation. In effect, this means deferring first Communion for the riper age of 12, 14 or even older."

He also states:

"Most moving, in a day which thinks of itself as having discovered the rights of parents and the wholesome claims of personalism, is the contention of the 1910 decree that the formal admission of the child to first Communion rests with its parents, or the one taking their place, and with its confessor or spiritual director. The decree presupposes that these will act together and, when they agree on the matter, no one may interfere. Where the parents are negligent or indifferent, or opposed to their child's first Communion, the father-confessor (note carefully that he is assumed to be already the child's confidant) can take on the entire responsibility."

The entire document can be read here:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...0_fconf_en.html


Joe

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#181096 - 07/13/03 08:47 PM Re: Denial of Communion
Scotus Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/03
Posts: 156
Loc: Detroit, MI
Dear Joe,

Quote:

Eventually, the Latin Catholic diocese here is intending to merge all three initiation sacraments as practiced in the Eastern (and ancient) churches.

Joe
They would need some Vatican permission to do that

Here is the Canon Law on the subject.

Quote:

Can. 913 §1 For holy communion to be administered to children, it is required that they have sufficient knowledge and be accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
The bishop could not do this on his own authority, but would require a Papal dispensation from Canon Law.

-Brendan (no, not that Brendan, the other Brendan)

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#181097 - 07/14/03 04:22 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6075
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Brendan
Thanks for that quote - it was just what I needed biggrin

Going back to the very first post on this thread - the child that was deinied Communion

Quote:
so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
Now if this had been applied with sensitivity [ as it is undoubtedly done in some places] this whole stramash would never have happened.

As to the re-ordering of the Sacraments of Initiation to which Joe referred - I am a leeeeeeeetle hazy as to his meaning of this.

I can't see the RC Church at present agreeing to infants receiving all the Sacraments togther at their Baptism frown but there certainly is a movement [ here in the UK smile and in some other areas I understand] for children to receive Confirmation much younger [ it used to be about 12 years of age] Here in our Archdiocese we are certainly moving to Confirmation, First Confession then First Holy Communion in one academic year [ sort of October/November (Confirmation), then Lent ( Confession), with First Communion during the same Easter Period ] We seem to be thinking of our 8yr olds though the 'catch up' stages are still ongoing.

Maybe one day it will all become clear

Anhelyna

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#181098 - 07/14/03 11:46 AM Re: Denial of Communion
Theist Gal Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 1130
Loc: Southern California
Quote:
Originally posted by Scotus:
Dear Joe,

Quote:

Eventually, the Latin Catholic diocese here is intending to merge all three initiation sacraments as practiced in the Eastern (and ancient) churches.

Joe
They would need some Vatican permission to do that

Here is the Canon Law on the subject.

Quote:

Can. 913 §1 For holy communion to be administered to children, it is required that they have sufficient knowledge and be accurately prepared, so that according to their capacity they understand what the mystery of Christ means, and are able to receive the Body of the Lord with faith and devotion.
The bishop could not do this on his own authority, but would require a Papal dispensation from Canon Law.

-Brendan (no, not that Brendan, the other Brendan)
Thanks for providing that info, Brendan!

I have no problem with the Church deciding to do this, but only with individual churches making their own rules in defiance of the current Church law - which has been a big problem in the Latin Rite churches for many years.

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