The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Augoustinos, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5604 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 306 guests, and 496 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,747
Posts412,013
Members5,604
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187228 10/17/02 07:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Dear and Esteemed Administrator,

Yes, but sometimes externals is all we have at the beginning.

It is sometimes all we Ukies have period . . .

It reminds me, although I don't know how applicable this story is to the current discussion, of Andre Frossard and his French Catholic Socialist colleagues who attended Mass every morning at 6:00 am.

A colleague of theirs told them he wanted "to have faith like they do" and so they prescribed a sure-shot conversion plan of attending daily Mass with them for 30 days . . .

If you've heard this story before, don't be afraid to stop me. wink

He did attend Mass for thirty days, and he was asked by Andre at certain intervals whether he was feeling any change with respect to faith. He always said, "Non."

And he said, "Non" on the 30th day as well . . .

The next morning, Frossard and his companions assembled in St Nicolas Church as they always did - and there was their atheist friend ahead of them!

They rushed to him and asked if anything happened to change his mind overnight . . .

He again said, "Non." But he added, "I just can't live without the Mass any more . . ."

Eventually, he came to have faith.

I think we need something tangible to grab onto first before we can believe in the invisible - or so John the Theologian wrote I believe.

As for pizza, pepperoni will do just fine if the "Vulgarians" don't have kielbassa.

(p.s. did you know kielbassa is a ritual food our Carpathian ancestors sacrificed to the boar-god of the mountains and then ate as a form of communion with him? Believe it or not!)

Alex

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187229 10/17/02 08:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Dr. John,

So what about some black guy you met dressed in urban American gear? He was not who I was talking about. The fact that you can not identify who I'm talking about only shows your disconnection from the discussed problem. What you fail to understand is that "Hip Hop" culture is far broader then gangster rap - Aklie can testify to this. I belong to Hip Hop culture - it encompasses rap music of all types, go-go music, dance hall, house music, trip hop and list probably goes on. I have both my ears peirced and tattooes - so what? Some of your black drug dealers dress in the typical fashion of black college students - so what?

And rappers I don't have so much of the problem with, as long as they don't bring B.S. to their concerts in town. I was at the Tupac concert when he last came to Milwaukee and he and his crew pulled out pistols on the audience (Tupac is/was a Vice Lord). And I was in the hotel that the audience started to bust up after the concert. I know well enough gangster rap.

My main beef lies with hard drug dealers - gang members or not. Unlike you allude or anyone else here the inner city neighborhoods look worst then what they did in the early 80's. People have always had rats. And people have always been poor. But poor people use to keep their homes up and clean. Crack cocaine - neighborhoods went to h*** and rats run across streets.

And Aklie, powder cocaine isn't the same thing as rock. Infact one friend of mine has given up selling rock (crack) to just selling powder, self admitting that rock (crack) has destroyed black neighborhoods. I know people that use powder cocaine and in general they can function. Infact I know people (black) that have made a switch from rock to powder, and can now function as any other citizen. Crack cocaine if not the worst is one of the worst drugs to hit mankind. You can not tell a neighborhood that sells powder cocaine, but you can tell a neighborhood that sells crack.

People that do not understand they current situation of the thug culture think we can just pray our way out of this and ignore it for the "honest hard working black or white people". It's been tried. And now white youth in the suburbs and rural areas of America are "banging".

Administrator, if you knew more about what you were talking about, you would not ask why black people have given up Christian this or that. Christianity and it's prayer vegils has failed to knock a dent into the troubles that face present black America. The NOI (Nation of Islam) however has made a dent, they don't just pray, but make confrontation with the exact people I'm talking about. Outside of that the GD (Gangster Disciples. And if not the largest black gang in America, is only second to that of the Crips. However GD not Crips run all the midwest except for the Twin Cities and Texas they share with Crips), as I have sent warning to some American Bishops, have literaly, their own Bible that replaces that of the Christian. It teaches respect - yes. But thugism also.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187230 10/17/02 08:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,476
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,476
Justin,

If you had really read my post you would understand that I was recommending Christ as the answer to the problems faced by the black community. I am not suggesting that people can pray their way out of the troubles that you have detailed. I am suggesting that without Christ resolving these issues will be much more difficult, if not impossible.

Admin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187231 10/17/02 10:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
Justin,

If you had really read my post you would understand that I was recommending Christ as the answer to the problems faced by the black community. I am not suggesting that people can pray their way out of the troubles that you have detailed. I am suggesting that without Christ resolving these issues will be much more difficult, if not impossible.

Admin
Admin,

I should say I'm sorry to you and Dr John for my tone to you both. And for that I am sorry.

Major things that have touched my heart deep have been the Corps. More then that the Catholic Church. Even more then both of those is the fall of drug gangs and/or cartels. I don't think one could grasp my hatred of these institutions. For their fall I would be willing to have my testicals cut off and my face scared by burning.

Dr. John suggested that those that preach generation gap, racial gap and so forth. Should be allowed to hang themselves (metaphor for due themselves in by their own 'tom foolery'). This may or could be the case. But there could just as well be another way the whole thing could evolve. One who supposedly possess great leadership traits - such as myself - in his/her prejudice against these institutions may not be satisfied in sharing the belt (as in a prize fight) with these gangs and culture. May not have the philosophy as much of Christianity which is - we have some, they have some. That leader could one day rise gain respect in his/her cause and suggest - winner takes all. In the process of his/her will and drive to win, he/she may take lessons from Nepolian (spelling?) and view religion as one means to serve the cause and goal of winning. In which case that person could go to the Islamic community and if that community was willing to stand on the side of his/her cause, he/she may bend on knees and pray to Allah. And not only bring war to the gangs but represent Islam to the black community. And if the Catholic/Baptist Church got in his/her way, that person might take Islam to the Latino populations also. If that person possess such leadership traits that when men or women stand in front of him/her they tend to listen and sometimes follow? Such as a person like myself. Then the Catholic Church thought it had a small following in the black community. After a person like that is done with it, talk of black and Latino Catholics or Baptist, might be memories of gone by glorious days.

Winner take all! I'm not willing to share the belt.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187232 10/20/02 10:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
A
Aklie Semaet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Dear Administrator,

Well the actual person who is "Administrator' is starting to come alive. Now I know that your ancestors came from the Carpathian Mountains and I know that you have been publishing Mezmur (liturgical "music') for 20 years; I can assume that it only gets better. I was starting to believe that you were really a Byzantine Hal 9000 pre-programmed computer to remind us about Christian Charity when we got out of hand; or maybe as in that classic mid-80's movie "The Last Dragon' where Bruce Leroy smile went on a journey to locate "The Master' and when he finally did it was not some wise Chinese martial artist as he expected but a machine that randomly spits out papers with proverbs for Chinese fortune cookies.

Well I agree with your overall sentiment and the spirit of you orientation; just allow me to knit-pick on a few asides if you will. You don't have to convince me about Jesse Jackson. I had little respect for him before his adultery scandal and it made no difference afterward. Rev. Dr. King always considered Jessie to be a bit too ambitious and opportunistic; I think history has proven Martin's prophetic vision correct again. I can show you the biggest Black internet community on the web with over 1,500,000 members and at least 30,000 people on-line at any one given time. You will rarely hear anyone defending Jessie there (unless they are a Democratic Party hack)

1the black American community is concentrating more on the externals than on tending the roots and helping them grow. 2But then, I suppose that is the typically North American thing to do!

Assertion one is half correct (even if it is too general a statement), assertion two is totally correct. Kwanza (meaning "first' in Swahili; signifying the first harvest) was a holiday invented by Ron "Malauna' Karenga (who is a UCLA and not a Harvard professor). He is called the "butcher of Ki-Swahili' by native Swahili speakers who know of him (as I found out during my various travels to Kenya. Justin can probably remember the crazy descriptions of him from the autobiography of Black Panther leader Elaine Brown that he read “Taste of Power.” He is accused of being an FBI informant during the 1960's, an allegation that the FBI has refused to deny and which Karenga simply answers "I made mistakes in the 60's.' His group (US) had violent altercations with the Black Panther Party in the 1960's on the UCLA campus; probably at the instigation of the FBI COINTELPRO program if not due to his direct participation in such program.

Yes he did throw a hodgepodge of African harvest, Jewish and Native American traditions together and call it "Kwanza' and yes it is pretty shallow. But can you show me one non-controversial American home grown holiday (which means it can't be Thanksgiving) that is not "external' or superficial? Yes, it is an external focus. But as Alex pointed out; an external focus that African Americans were stuck with for the time and indeed the type of externality that most oppressed groups are stuck with for a time.

Karenga created Kwanza essentially as an African substitute for a "European' holiday (Christmas). Our Christmas is January 7th Orthodox Christmas so those anti-December 25th Christmas celebration arguments have no relevance to us.

Why are successful black Americas, such as Alan Keyes, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas and Walter Williams, so disparaged by the black community?...I had always felt that these men were disparaged pretty much because they rejected the liberal mentality that appears to be dominant in the black community.

First off "successful black Americans' are not disparaged by the Black community. There are many successful Black Americans who are astronauts, lawyers, pilots, engineers, civil servants and political figures as well as musicians and actors that are considered heroes in the Black community. Black conservatives per se are not necessarily disparaged either as is evidenced by the respect held for Colin Powell and the fact that most of the Pastors and Ministers hold and preach socially conservative messages. People like the ones you mentioned are not respected for a far more different reason. Let me use one that you provide as a case study: Walter Williams .

O.K. so if Walter Williams is the type of great conservative economist who happens to be Black that he is promoted as being how come we never hear from him? Read Closely: If Walter Williams was simply a great economist then he would always appear on television for a variety of issues. But he does not. He appears on Black issues only (or mostly). If he was simply a great conservative economist then he would appear to debate on overall fiscal policy. He would debate on military spending and other budgetary issues from the perspective of a conservative. He does not!. He solely (to be fair let me say mostly) appears to comment on Black issues; and commenting as a Black conservative, such as:
“Oh no! We have some blacks demanding affirmative action; they will be on our 7:00 program. Call Walter Williams to counter them.”

“What is going on here? We have some crazy fringe element negroes demanding reparations for slavery. We are going to interview them on our 10:00 program. How should we counter them? Call Walter Williams!”

“There is a class action law suit against dominoes pizza for discriminating against the Black community in delivery services. How should we counter these plaintiffs without looking racist? Call Walter Williams!”

I am sorry; but when your sole function is to simply counter the assertions of African American activists and you don't get called in to debate with others on other issues then you are no conservative; you are just an uncle tom. Most of these Black conservatives are never heard from when it is a general issue; they are not heard from up until the time that White conservatives pull them off the political coat hanger when they are conveniently needed to counter other voices in the Black community.

The Black community would see these as people with no pride, no dignity, no culture, and no honor. One Ethiopian axiom is Kurat erat naw (pride is dinner) which means that I would starve hungry rather than take insult on a full stomach. The Black American equivalent slogan was made by Black abolitionists of the early to mid 19th Century (especially by Denmark Vessey): “I would rather die a free man than live to be a slave.” I don't think Walter Williams understands this principle, which is why he is not liked; not because he is "successful.'

On Keys, I will admit; since Keys has become a pundit his discussions have become more diverse in range and more interesting. I do have a greater respect for him now. He no longer only talks nonsense. I have been impressed with his arguments for Catholic morality; indeed to represent himself as one of the few African American Apostolic Christians in media. I have also been impressed by many of his recent stances including taking John Ashcroft to task for speaking at that racist university (which John Ashcroft used an anti-Catholic response in reply). I was not so impressed by his failure to stand up for innocent Catholic Priest who were being falsely accused of crimes they didn't commit; instead he kept talking about how he was morally outraged (which everyone else was as well) by the crimes. In the long run that just led him to give unintended support to the built in anti-Catholic bias of the Pat Robertson and Jerry Farwell media. “Look, were not anti-Catholic, Keys is saying it to and he himself is a Catholic.” Time will tell which direction he will evolve.

I was recommending Christ as the answer to the problems faced by the black community.

And Christ IS the answer to the problems faced by the Black community; the true Christ of the Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church! Christ, the Church, and the Church culture is the solution to the family crisis and the gang crisis. But I will not pretend that it functions in a vacuum; massive employment opportunities, decent education, technical training and a family stabilizing living salary are also needed. Christ said that man does not live by bread alone, he did not say that he does not live by bread at all.

Switching topics a bit, I have a question. I understand the desire of the black community to look for an authentic African culture to replace the one that was taken from them.

That alone set you miles apart from the average publicized conservative. They will not even accept this much. Any such cultural re-assertion or re-discovery is dismissed as "Afrocentrism' not matter if it is or not. The fact of the matter is that any embracing of African culture by African Americans, Christian or otherwise, will be criticized by the conservative community. This is a question that the whole establishment seems to be united on. Both liberals (such as Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. who wrote the book Disuniting of America) and conservatives (like Dinish Desouza who wrote Illiberal Education and The end of Racism) have condemned African American attempts at African cultural re-assertion. If ever a larger movement of African Americans endorsing Ethiopian (or Egyptian) Christianity was to take place you best believe that it will not take long for think tanks and conservative foundations to find something to single out and criticize. Every American is allowed to be who they are; Chinese Americans, Italian Americans, Ukrainian Americans, or as the American ambassador to Ethiopia likes to remind people Hungarian American. The Black American, in contrast is told to simply accept being "Black' and being an American. He is constantly reminded to forget Africa and things African and that he is not an African (and don't let us get into the history of the controversy that erupted when Black Americans decided to call themselves Black Americans; I was a little boy so I don't remember it first hand but I have studied it subsequently).

It seems, however, that they are attempting to create an entirely new one rather than to embrace a real one and adapt it to life in America. Why have not black Americans embraced the Christian culture of, say, Ethiopia, instead of what they are doing?

Very good point and we are working on it. But it is not only the responsibility of Black Americans to reach out and embrace Ethiopian Christianity; it is also the responsibility of Ethiopians (both as Christians as well as Africans) to reach out and evangelize Black Americans. In our Church we are starting to do that; we have plans to set up Orthodox Church booths at "Juneteenth' and other Black festivals and to send the zemaris (choir) to perform mezmur to African American student organizations and the like (and don't underestimate the language barrier; in most Ethiopian Churches there is not a single service in English; but some Black Americans learn because of their wishing for an authentic African language). People are excited and we are ready. I think the Ethiopian Christian culture has a lot of valuable things to contribute to the African American community as well as the Black American culture have a lot to contribute to the Ethiopian immigrant community (the latest addition to the wider African American community). The Copts in our community have also won over Black Americans to Orthodoxy as well. But it is all of our responsibility (including yours Administrator) to sometimes give up on asking why don't "those people' do this or that and just extend them an invitation to communion and faith.

Well, I have said enough for today.

And oh yes Administrator; now how about those Giants Huh? Frisco, wha?! Frisco, wha?!

God Bless


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187233 10/20/02 10:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
A
Aklie Semaet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Justin,

First of all, take it easy on the elders. Dr. John's opinion is NO different than that of the typical Black American Pastor. The Pastor also has a distant understanding of Hip Hop culture, not because he is white (because he is very Black) but because he is generations removed. I don't like to guess ages but Dr. John can probably well remember having a Beatles or a BG's album that he liked but none of his elders understood or respected. He and others can also probably remember that out of the diversity of Rock n' Roll available, the critics would focus on songs about “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds[LSD]” (or however that song went). This must have been very irritating for them.

It is said that Christ extended his hand to, healed, and ate with sinners, prostitutes and tax collectors (of all people!) to the ridicule and gossip of by standers and lookers-on. Christ did not start off with the self righteous proposition that these people are horrible so hang them by their earrings and eyelids. He demonstrated unconditional love and led by example. This, THIS!!! turned the self-righteousness, the "purity' and the legalistic nonsense as promoted by the Pharisees on its head. Christ's emphasis on love set him apart from everyone else in his day and days to come; and his love message is unparalleled unto this day. That is the attitude we have to take toward the crips, bloods, drug dealers and users, vice lords and disciples.

Your attitude is one that I find common with solders and former solders. But the world is not a boot camp and that approach has its limitations and flaws. You just have to show by example; when you preach down, judge or overly criticize people what ever positive influence that you had starts to diminish. Even if you have been personally affected (and by no means am I trying to down play what you have been through) extending love to the misguided lot is far more effective than the vigilante attitude.

I am relieved that many police officers, prosecutors and judges don't rely on that type of “Winner take all! I'm not willing to share the belt” temper or attitude.

I know many people who, at age 15 and 16, were sitting handcuffed in a police car and very well could have went to the Youth Authority (Juvenile prison not Juvenile Hall) on felony charges. The cop had a compassionate approach and let these people go and today they have university degrees, work professionally, and never had a run-in with the law after that incident. Let me also say that one of them has also returned back to the Police officer who originally let him go and thanked him, showed him what type of person he had become, and gave him an invitation to their university graduation party. It brought tears to the officer's eyes and let him know that compassion does produce results.

These officers showed more Christian Charity than many Christians that I know; even if they were Godless donut eaters smile .

Tupac is/was a Vice Lord

No way on Earth. Or maybe he was just for that concert smile

God Bless


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187234 10/20/02 10:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
A
Aklie Semaet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
But I think there is nothing wrong with creating new festivals, such as Kwanzaa, which I have myself organized at the legislature and have been involved with.

It does, quite systematically, celebrate African values.
Alemayu,

You never cease to amaze me. I am just sad that we lost you to sociology; you would have been a world-class anthropologist.

I don't know what Monarchist group or party it is that you belong to but whoever they are, if they are accepting applications from socialists sign me up and put a good word in for me, pleeeeaaase. Whoever they are they are 1,000,000 times more progressive than any party that exists in this country.

You are totally correct about many North Americans of African descent having a mythic idea about Ethiopia. This is especially the case with Jamaican Rastafarians. In the missionary efforts of our Church in Jamaica we have had to work very hard on some of these people. At first, Rastafarians wanted to get Baptized in the name of the late Emperor and not the Trinity (not to mention the confusion brought about by the word for the Trinity as well as the name of the late Emperor being the same—Selassie). Not only that but Rastafarian philosophy says that you can have more than one wife, we had to drill it into their heads that as a Christian—no you can't. But the missionary efforts in Jamaica, Trinidad, South Africa, etc have been very fruitful over all. We even have some noteworthy converts like Bob Marley himself, who was Baptized into the Church and given the Christian name Berhane Selassie months before he died (so he died a Christian and not a Rasta).

And will y'all pleeeeeease stop talking about pizza (I don't care if it has sliced kielbasi or not! I probably won't get to taste it until January! Talk about cabbage or something!

God Bless!


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187235 10/20/02 11:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Aklie,

True what you say of Dr John. I must remember that he may not understand somethings just as I may not understand some things. Due probably to our ages.

Christ also traveled with men with swords. Men of violence can be met with that same amount of force. And I'm not against allowing for conversion, the NOI (Nation of Islam) converts a lot of young men who were both users or pushers. But if you are a member of an orginization of violence then it is just your bad luck if you fail to convert before the bullets fly. What is knowledge of Christ going to do for the black community? Nothing. As though Christianity can only provide for safe streets? I'm sure there are many Islamic nations were it is safer to walk down the street then one of the million blocks in America with it store front Churches - competting with the liquor stores.

We all have our own opinions and that's fine. Perhaps at some point one will prevail above the rest - who knows.

Everyone has their different talents, abilities, some men can say that there is never a moment they can't attract women, some can say that they have a knack for making money, some can say their talent is in math, some medicine, others art. Me, I can say that whenever I am thrown in a group of men, I tend to always emerge as one of the dominate leaders in that group. What is it that draws other men to follow one man? Good question. But I have observed this about some who are educated and seem annoyed that they fail to influince other men, educated or not, where I seem to sway influince. It is not what you offer others or what logic you think lies in others following you and your prescription. It is - can you draw men to follow you.

And it is here that, if ever the day, I decide to make a committment to fighting drug gangs in America, it is a sad day for them. But America is not my primary concern - God willing by the time I'm 35 I'll be in Colombia not as a leader but as a small servant. Or if I change my mind by that time for some reason, or that is not something that is possible, hopefully I will be wise and seek my own comfort in Brazil - a place in which I have long wanted to go. I have no desire to lead anything really. And it would be smarter of me to concern myself with my own affairs anyways.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187236 10/21/02 02:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Let me point out that when I mention the NOI (Nation of Islam) this is not Islam I have in mind when I say "Islam". The NOI just has some note worthy aspects to it.

And when I spoke of the "winner take all" that's exactly what I meant. But for leadership positions like that of the mayors office. This is just represenative of the attitude I have when I lead. I am the leader and those I appoint, not 25 other self appointed leaders. I would be unwilling to share the belt with VL's or GD's or LK's. Our current mayors might, but not I. My police police the streets not these thugs. Police letting kids or adults go, at their discretion, I have no problem with. Police do it all the time. Unlike popular mythology, metro police often let drug addicts go that they find small amounts of drugs on. If they have a warrant or are repeat felons - well they might not. I do not micro manage when I lead, and I give room for people to prove thier stuff. But I am the trend setter, and because of that, I sometimes bump heads with others in positions of authority - that is just my style of leadership. To each his own.

And I'm not so mean as to suggest that Christians or Catholic or Orthodox Bishops should be able to discern everything under the sky. The Christian Church - Christianity & it's Bishops, might not be able to discern whether they should put a person with a pedophilia problem around children alone. But they are learning how to deal with this problem now. And if their is a problem with discerning how to deal with our current gangs and drug dealers. Not a problem. The Bishops and Christianity only need ask me. I can discern. But then if I am strong I use my strength to represent those weaker, I come in the name of the more vunerable. I'm not as concerned with those who's ego has lead them in to orginized criminal behavior. But again to each his own.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187237 10/22/02 02:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
A
Aklie Semaet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Brother Justin,

Let me point out that when I mention the NOI (Nation of Islam) this is not Islam I have in mind when I say "Islam". The NOI just has some note worthy aspects to it.

Neither I, nor anyone else, ever denied that the NOI had some noteworthy aspects to it. In pole after pole Farrakhan is always ranked very high if not number one as "considered a leader' by the Black community (in contrast with the media who simply dismisses him as of no significance. But let me ask you—if he is ranked that high (and he is) then why, out of 35,000,000 African Americans, does the NOI membership only number in the tens of thousands if Farrakhan is seen as such a big leader? The answer is simple…African Americans like what he has to say about politics, pride, etc. but they are not going to become Muslims. They will fill up the local coliseum to say ohhhh, ahhhh and hurray at his rally but they will be back at Church on Sunday; guaranteed. The Christian orientation of the Black community is not going anywhere. At least not on a large scale.

Everyone has their different talents, abilities… I tend to always emerge as one of the dominate leaders in that group.

I don't doubt your leadership skills, but use good gifts for good deeds. That same military paradigm (which probably enhanced your leadership skills) emphasizes leading by example. Does not the drill sergeant also run and not just command the rest of you to run?

Christ also traveled with men with swords

About carrying swords; yes, this history is well known (and "liberation theologians' from Latin America to Harlem emphasize things like this); but what does it prove? One Disciple, Simeon, was identified as a Zealot (a radical Jewish political faction concerned overthrowing Roman rule). Jesus not only traveled with men who had swords but at one places tells them that if they did not have a sword to go and get one. One place he even says: I have not come to bring peace but a sword. How can one not come to bring peace but still be a peace maker and the Prince of Peace? There is no shortage of secular scholars who are ready and willing to go along with the liberation theologians; especially if you read stuff written from the late 60's to mid 70's. But now even the secular opinion has shifted against these excesses.

In contrast to all the other revolutionaries of the time, like Bar Yosef, Jesus focused inward. He focused on what was wrong with Jews and not what was wrong with what Romans were doing to Jews. What made Jesus revolutionary was precisely what he did differently from all the other revolutionaries.

In a world where the Jewish paradigm was that the wages of sin is death, you reap what you sow, and eye for an eye; a world in which diseased and crippled people were denied entry into the temple; a world in which adulterous women were stoned to death while their husbands did what they pleased; to have a world like this and do what Jesus did was indeed revolutionary.

For a Messiah to heal the sick on the Sabbath was revolutionary, to forgive sins himself was revolutionary, to tell people to forgive one another and love not only your neighbor (which was old school) but even your enemy—was revolutionary.

A Man without blemish, error or sin, who walked, talked and ate with sinners and prostitutes (the thugs and social outcasts of his day)—that was revolutionary. A Holy Man who did not judge and healed all who asked and even those who didn't (including that Greek woman); in a time when what all self appointed holy men did was judge and pick, that was revolutionary.

Christ died for the Redemption of humanity; and humanity does not deserve it but he still died. How much more should we be at least patient, caring and loving to those who are considered social deviants? That is the least we can do when God did so much more for us all.

In Christ,

A. Semaet


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187238 10/22/02 04:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Aklie,

The Christian orientation of the black community isn't going any where? Huh! I feel the need to laugh off of this one. True there is a hardcore element of Protestant faith that is not only one of faith in Christ but cultural, in the black community. But by God this is no black community of the 1950's. At least 98% of my friends or associates are black Americans and it's probably not to unfair to say that at least 90% of them don't go to Church or care anything for Christianity - minus the mythical fear of damnation to hell for speaking ill of Christ - I'm closer to Church then most of them lol. And that's not close lol.

Last I read 30% of all muslims in America are black Americans. And of that 30% of black Americans not all are in the Nation of Islam. Many black Americans choose to follow true Islam, which is not found in the NOI.

Let me put it to you this way. Islam as a real force has been in America less time then Roman Catholicism. Yet in far shorter time it has converted a greater number of black Americans then this "Apostolic Church". Islam is in fact one of the fastest growing religions in America, and faster growing among black Americans. The only reason Roman Catholicism hangs on in America in real numbers is because of the Latino immigrants. And a number of them are converting to the Protestant faiths know LOL.

As for my leadership qualities, please do not feel the need to lecture me on how to lead people. I am not leading anyone now so as to the "leading by example" this is N/A. And as far as my leading by example does go, some of what your gangster rapers rap but haven't done (some of them), I have. I've already put an entire family down on the ground with a shotgun. Slept on a friends couch with a shotgun in hand when he needed me to stay over and help watch his family from attack from excon gangbangers. Had a cop flee me when he looked in my eyes and thought he saw his death close at hand, in which case he was right - a person can tell the willingness of another to kill not from what they say or facial experssions per se or from their body gestures. A person can tell in/through the silent stare in the others eyes.

All those things I did in the past are past. But it only means this for my future - I will be willing to pick up a gun or rifle for good cause.

I don't promote my self or other civilians going out and killing or shooting drug dealers or gangbangers. I would say, unlike in my former days, the police should be called first. They are the professionals and law and order should be respected. But I do suggest that people who understand what's going on, primarily exconvicts, former gang members and so forth, can help - in a legal way - fight the drug dealers of the neighborhoods they came out of. But I suggest this in an armed fashion. Drug dealer shoots on you or makes a move to you blast him down. They want to box we box. They want a stick fight we stick fight. See the people I would ask to follow me aren't military veterens, their all good but they work to get payed, I would ask three things of people. 1) They be willing to suffer. 2) They be willing to do time in prison. 3) They be willing to die. All these I would be willing to do if I ever decided to commit myself in this so called "drug war". And more then likely the only people I could get to stand along side of me would be former thugs and/or drug addicts - someone who knows what's it all about and who believes in what they are doing, affected so much that they would die to spare another life the road of hell they went down. I don't think US military professionals or University students fit that profile. They have to much to loose and have never lost enough. Most people demand payment to risk their lives, if they will risk it at all. The revolutionary fights because he deep down believes in his cause and it's rightousness.

But of course none of this is neither here nor there because I'm not crusading anywhere. At least no time soon.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187239 10/22/02 07:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
A
Aklie Semaet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 271
Brother Justin,

I am not trying to lecture you on anything; only making suggestions(which is what we do on a discussion page). You are also free to make any suggestion to me that come to your heart.

30% of American Muslims are Black Americans does not mean that 30% of Black Americans are Muslims. Yes, it is the fastest growing religion; I am reminded about that by the Muslim Students Association daily. Just like in the Latino immigrant and Catholicism example you used; Islam growth also has something to do with immigration.

Yes, I am sure that many Black Americans are turning to the "true' Islam. Let me also say that many of these "true' Islam converts have some major issues especially in some tendencies in out-Arabizing Arabs. At least they do in California; and the Oakland Iman (an African American) complains about the predominance in this tendency by new converts. But even if 3,000,000 African Americans were Muslim that is still not even 10%. BTW, why do you think that the NOI uses both the Qu'ran and the Bible (and quotes the Bible more than they quote the Qu'ran)? This is because their audience, their constituency is not their small base of Muslim followers but the overwhelming majority of Christian sympathizers. Remember at the Million Man March when Farrakhan called Jesus the "Son of God?' How many Muslims feel compelled to make that kind of a statement except those speaking to legions of people that are Christian to their soul?

And of these "true' Islam leaders (like Wallace Muhammad) none of them could call a march with 1,000,000 Black men one year and two years later inspire a march with 2,000,000 Black women in Philadelphia. I guess that settles the relevancy of which Islam is true or not.

Just as in Ethiopia (where the Church produced Ethiopian Culture); the Black American Church produced the core moorings and cultural expressions of Black America. Jazz, Blues, classical R&B, the Black oratory and literary tradition, community organizations and styles of interaction; where do you think all this came from, it came from the Church. Who led the civil rights movement and where did the community meet to discuss its issues? The Church! When the Klan started provoking and threatening who made the first move to defend the community? The Deacons who organized the Deacons for Defense! Did you know that while Thomas Jefferson and co. were organizing their Constitutional Convention (which excluded Black people) that the free Black Community organized its own convention, and adopted its own Constitution? This convention, called by some historians as the official founding of Black America, was totally based on the Church, had a spiritual ring to it and some of the signatories were men like Rev. Richard Allen, the founder of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. That's what I meant by the Christian orientation of the community.

Yes, culturally speaking, today's Black community is not the Black community of the 1950's; precisely because the Church no longer plays the community role that it did in the 1950's. I know you have talked to the elders about how back in the day if you got in trouble at school by the time you got home to receive your last spanking you would have already received a spanking from the teacher (who was also the Sunday School teacher on Sunday), and every neighbor leading up to your house, then finally mama would finish the job. How do you think everyone was this close knit? How did they all know and love each other? By farming together? No, no, no; they got it from belonging to the central community institution—The Church!

When I said the Christian orientation of the Black community isn't going anywhere I meant that Abdullah and Ramin were not going to break it from its basic cultural moorings. I advance the Christian orientation not as a "just-is' but as a "must-be.' The entire community is not there but it needs to be there and by the Grace of God, who never fails, it will be there. If Jesse Jackson ever said anything relevant brother Justin you know what it was? Keep hope alive.

God Bless


Egzi'o Marinet Kristos
Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187240 10/22/02 10:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Nice post Alkie.

I better understand you now. And yes this is why the Baptist Church is the seat of political power in black America. But things change, and Islam is the great change coming I'm afraid. Wallace Mohammed I greatly respect. He could not draw a million man march because he is not as visual as Farrakan. But he has intentionaly kept himself out of the media's attention. He infact has white converts and boasts 200,000 *active* members even though he has made himself not well known. The fact is though the vast majority of young black Americans (just like most young white Americans) don't attend Church or are loyal to anything that goes oustide of their political beliefs. They find Christianity to be false and the "white mans" religion - both young blacks as well as young whites feel this way. Infact most white people probably if you asked them would tell you Christianity was born out of the Western world. Ethiopia or Eygpt would not even come to their mind little loan India or Syria.

I call this ripe for picking.

Just so you know, though it would be very hard, Latin Catholicism could convert a large number of these black Americans - if the American is looking for God or that higher power - but ironicly the Catholic Church in America is making it's self less appealing to young black American men, thinking it's not, by throwing out things like the crucifix and practice of the rosary. Things that many young black "hip hop" males admire and like. You might recall Tupac frequently wearing a crucifix though he was not Catholic. He even invoked the "Hail Mary!" in one of his rap songs. A good black Protestant friend of mine wanted to know from me if you had to be Catholic to wear a rosary beads. He likes them alot - for a fashion and religious statment - but has no desire to convert to Catholicism. I told him no you don't have to be Catholic. By the way he reads Elijha Muhammed. But will not read Catholic literature.

I've already sent off some suggestions to some Bishops regarding black Americans. But I suspect I'll be thought an idiot.

Anyways I have no motive one way or the other. I just don't want the Christians getting in the way of what's the right thing, then we could have a problem and my support for Islam could rise like a tidal wave.

Justin

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187241 10/23/02 02:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
traveler Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 225
Interestingly, it was toxic social conditions--that preceded the Ottoman invasion--as well as anarchy within the churches that led to the mass defection of Balkan Christians to Islam in the fifteenth century.

Ironically, African-American Muslims will cite similar reasons for their defection from Christianity and conversion to Islam.

The most sincere and devoted Muslims in America are African Americans.

Abdur

Re: $$"House Slave"? Or Loyal Husband of The Household?+ #187242 10/23/02 11:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
M
Maximus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 405
Quote
Originally posted by traveler:


The most sincere and devoted Muslims in America are African Americans.

Abdur
Yes Abdur, and they were traditionaly great Protestants too. And when they are Catholic from observation they tend to be great Catholics also. I don't know must be in the blood and culture.

I am highly impressed with the Ladies of Peter Claver. And the black women involved at the parishes. Infact regarding the black men - the older and wise gentler man that is responsible for the opening of the African American Holacaust (spelling) museum in Milwaukee, is Catholic and very active in his parish.

Justin

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3