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#191581 02/28/03 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by ChristTeen287:
I was under the impression that the Anglican Communion wasn't viable in the first place...

ChristTeen287
Are you jesting or serious? What do you know about the Anglican Communion that you say that?

Hilde

#191582 02/28/03 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Hilde,

You make an excellent point.

In fact, the Anglican Churches outside North America and Britain are growing by leaps and bounds and are VERY conservative in terms of traditional Christian morality.

In fact, the conservative Anglicans outnumber the two million Anglican communicants noted in England.

For these African and Asian Anglicans, having a "gay affair" means celebrating a Church feast with exuberant liturgical services, lots of ethnic food and brightly coloured cultural costumes! wink

For them as well, "female priests" are what are studied in courses on pre-Christian pagan religions.

They consider "immoral sex doggy style" when a married man gets up on his hind legs before his bride and begs, while the wife rolls over and plays dead.

And, for them, "grass" is what you walk on and mow in the summer time . . .

They are great Christian people, all around. We can learn a few things from them. Especially with respect to sexuality . . . wink

Alex
Thank you, Alex. smile It would also be nice to recall that along with the Spongs and Bennisons that there *are* many many faithful Episcopalians in the US who don't get quoted by the papers.

Hilde

#191583 02/28/03 08:16 PM
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Dear Hilde,

Well, I'm a member of the Episcopal Society of King Charles the Martyr and the Anglicans associated with this group, and their parishes, are more traditionally Catholic than many of the liberal RC parishes who aren't above bringing in "liturgical clowns" for Masses.

They have about 20 Episcopal Churches dedicated to this Anglican saint, along with some that are Hispanic.

Yesterday, I was told by a number of upset Catholics that at the Catholic school that had the retreat I was at, a Catholic teacher regularly took kids to the chapel for a rite that involved invoking an "animal spirit."

Off hand, I'd say that wasn't a good thing . . . wink

But I'm a conservative too, so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt, you know . . .

Alex

#191584 02/28/03 09:05 PM
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Alex is right. Anglicanism certainly has a brighter furture than Orthodoxy if you look at the current trends.

I think this is why both the Pope and many Orthodox Patriarchs keep up the dialogue and fraternity with them.

Axios

#191585 03/01/03 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Hilde,

Well, I'm a member of the Episcopal Society of King Charles the Martyr and the Anglicans associated with this group, and their parishes, are more traditionally Catholic than many of the liberal RC parishes who aren't above bringing in "liturgical clowns" for Masses.
I've only seen one of those in an Episcopal context at a "Cursillo" function. You may have twigged by now that I am an Anglican. I hope it's still alright that I post here. I'll try to behave "decently and in order". smile


They have about 20 Episcopal Churches dedicated to this Anglican saint, along with some that are Hispanic.

Yesterday, I was told by a number of upset Catholics that at the Catholic school that had the retreat I was at, a Catholic teacher regularly took kids to the chapel for a rite that involved invoking an "animal spirit."

Off hand, I'd say that wasn't a good thing . . . wink

But I'm a conservative too, so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt, you know . . .

Alex
[/QUOTE]

An "animal spirit"?!? invoked in the chapel?! (searches for her smelling salts. biggrin ) How.... odd. I wonder what it was all about.

I am also conservative in many ways. From what I've read of your postings you are most balanced and no extra salt is needed.

Hilde

#191586 03/01/03 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by Axios:
Alex is right. Anglicanism certainly has a brighter furture than Orthodoxy if you look at the current trends.

I think this is why both the Pope and many Orthodox Patriarchs keep up the dialogue and fraternity with them.

Axios
What trends do you mean?

Hilde

#191587 03/01/03 02:08 AM
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The world wide demographic changes of the comparative communions.

Axios

#191588 03/01/03 05:32 AM
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It has always surprised me how Orthodox in the USA are so soft in their treatment of Protestantism. It is my understanding that it's because the Anglicans and other Protestant Churches helped the Orthodox durring its foundation, and lent temples to them.

I am sure that the vast majority of Anglicans and other Protestants are very good people, I have many friends who belong to the C of A. I believe that a dialogue with them can help Orthodox and Catholics to understand better the situation of modern christianity in the West.

But I am sure that when the Pope or Patriarch Bartholomew or any Catholic or Orthodox say it's possible to integrate the Anglican Church and to continue the dialogues for unity in spite of the innovations of the Anglicans, we just cheat ourselves.

Even when there are good Christians in the Anglican Church and very devote ministers who share conservative doctrines, traditional values, and a reverent worship, they are still part of the Anglican Communion along with all those people who accept homosexual marriages and "female" priests, and are part of a Protestant Church. If they are so traditional and orthodox in their faith why are they in communion with those who preach open heresy?
Not so long ago a Bishop in England denied the incarnation and other said he had doubts about the crucifiction. What kind of unity in faith can be achived with them, Protestantism is antitethical to Orthodoxy.

Some groups would say that the Anglican Church preserved the Apostlic Succession. However, a Latin Pope, Leo XIII himself, was the one who declared the Anglican orders to be null and void. The Anglicans are a schism that came from the Latin Church, so this Pope must have had serious reasons when he stated this. Again other might say that the Anglican Church recovered the Apostolic Succession when they contacted the Old Catholic Church, but what kind of "apostolic succession" would that be? It is a very diluted Succession, and maybe lack of grace because the new bishops were the result of many schisms.

#191589 03/01/03 06:05 PM
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It has always surprised me how Orthodox in the USA are so soft in their treatment of Protestantism.
It's called love and respect. It not suprising if one takes Christianity seriously.

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I am sure that the vast majority of Anglicans and other Protestants are very good people
As are teh vast majority of Catholics.

Quote
But I am sure that when the Pope or Patriarch Bartholomew or any Catholic or Orthodox say it's possible to integrate the Anglican Church and to continue the dialogues for unity in spite of the innovations of the Anglicans, we just cheat ourselves.
I think neither Pope nor Patriarch are cheaters.

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Even when there are good Christians in the Anglican Church and very devote [sic]ministers who share conservative doctrines, traditional values, and a reverent worship, they are still part of the Anglican Communion along with all those people who accept homosexual marriages and "female"[sic] priests, and are part of a Protestant Church. If they are so traditional and orthodox in their faith why are they in communion with those who preach open heresy?
Orthodoxy does not affirm the orthodoxy of any body other than ourselves. Yet those Christian communions -- both Catholic and Protestant -- from whom we are sadly seperated in communion and doctrine, we still seek dialogue, unity, concord, peace and cooperation.

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Not so long ago a Bishop in England denied the incarnation and other said he had doubts about the crucifiction.
And individual Catholic bishops have said as much and worse and individiual Orthodox bishops have held Calvinism and denied other doctrines.

Quote
What kind of unity in faith can be achived with them, Protestantism is antitethical to Orthodoxy.
Stirring up division between two Christian bodies of which neither you belong to is not only antitethical to Orthodoxy but sinful in the eyes of the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Some groups would say that the Anglican Church preserved the Apostlic Succession. However, a Latin Pope, Leo XIII himself, was the one who declared the Anglican orders to be null and void. The Anglicans are a schism that came from the Latin Church, so this Pope must have had serious reasons when he stated this. Again other might say that the Anglican Church recovered the Apostolic Succession when they contacted the Old Catholic Church, but what kind of "apostolic succession" would that be? It is a very diluted Succession, and maybe lack of grace because the new bishops were the result of many schisms.
Orthodoxy does not "bind" (to use a favorite Eastern & Western Catholic term) her faithful to accepting the Apostolic Succession of either Anglicanism nor Catholicism. Various Orthodox authorites have taken differing positions in both cases. Orthodoxy does NOT accept that the Roman Pontiff has any right to "bind" Orthodoxy to any judgement on Anglican Orders.

More importantly, our ecumencial initiatives are not limited to judgements over orders (in fact, that has never been a significant part of Orthodox ecumenism). We seek to have what unity we can with all other Christians.

Anything less betrays our Lord.

Axios

#191590 03/01/03 11:09 PM
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It's called love and respect. It not suprising if one takes Christianity seriously.

I am not an Old Calendarist or anti-ecumenical at all. And I clearly stated that we must treat our brothers as christians with love and respect and do the best to reach unity.

I think it is possible to reach unity with the Roman catholic Church, and overcome the difficulties of the filioque, the Papal Supremacy, etc, if Rome moderates its possitions about this, and returns to a more pre-schism scheme.

But do you think it is possible to find an agreement on "female priests", for example?

Orthodoxy does not affirm the orthodoxy of any body other than ourselves. Yet those Christian communions -- both Catholic and Protestant -- from whom we are sadly seperated in communion and doctrine, we still seek dialogue, unity, concord, peace and cooperation.

Orthodoxy does not "bind" (to use a favorite Eastern & Western Catholic term) her faithful to accepting the Apostolic Succession of either Anglicanism nor Catholicism. Various Orthodox authorites have taken differing positions in both cases. Orthodoxy does NOT accept that the Roman Pontiff has any right to "bind" Orthodoxy to any judgement on Anglican Orders.


You seem to identify the Anglican communion and the Roman catholic Church as being separated from Orthodoxy in equal terms. The fact that Orthodox Churchs have doalogues with both Catholis and Anglicans does not mean that they are considered the same. By the way, Catholic clergy that become Orthodox are received through vesting and not through re-ordination, while Anglican-Protestant clergy are re-ordained most of the time. Does that tells you something?

...individual Catholic bishops have said as much and worse and individiual Orthodox bishops have held Calvinism and denied other doctrines.

Hmm there you have the spirit of Protestantism and its harmful influence. What has happened to the Latin Church recently must be an example of what we must avoid. Let's keep our distance with Protestantism.

#191591 03/01/03 11:25 PM
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I am not an Old Calendarist or anti-ecumenical at all. And I clearly stated that we must treat our brothers as christians with love and respect and do the best to reach unity.
I was responding to your statement about being 'soft'.

Quote
I think it is possible to reach unity with the Roman catholic Church, and overcome the difficulties of the filioque, the Papal Supremacy, etc, if Rome moderates its possitions about this, and returns to a more pre-schism scheme.

But do you think it is possible to find an agreement on "female priests", for example?
Sadly, I, fallen human that I am, cannot intellectually see the corporate union of Orthodoxy with either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Therefore I don't accept your premise (nor is any Orthodox Christian required to). However, I do believe with God, all things are possible.

I hope for closer relations, an end to hatered, bitterness and Chauvanism and colaboration whenever possible with all other Christian bodies.

Quote
You seem to identify the Anglican communion and the Roman catholic Church as being separated from Orthodoxy in equal terms. The fact that Orthodox Churchs have dialogues with both Catholics and Anglicans does not mean that they are considered the same. By the way, Catholic clergy that become Orthodox are received through vesting and not through re-ordination, while Anglican-Protestant clergy are re-ordained most of the time. Does that tells you something?
It doesn't mean we don't view them the same. As you note, Orthodoxy has no universal (or "binding") view as to either Catholicism or Anglicanism. Soemtimes clergy from both are re-ordained, sometimes they are accepted through vesting. Orthodox practice seems to be one of episcopal judgement.

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Let's keep our distance with Protestantism
Of course, we cannot do this and still rightly call ourselves Christians.

Axios

#191592 03/03/03 03:36 AM
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Pope Invites Archbishop of Canterbury to Keep Up Efforts for Unity
On Occasion of Anglican Primate's Solemn Enthronement

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 28, 2003 (Zenit.org).- In a letter to the new archbishop of
Canterbury, John Paul II expressed his hopes for continued progress in
Catholic-Anglican relations.

Cardinal Walter Kasper handed the Pope's message to Rowan Williams today along
with a pectoral cross from the Pontiff to mark the occasion of Thursday's
enthronement of the new primate of All England and president of the Anglican
Communion in Canterbury Cathedral.

Cardinal Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian
Unity, represented the Holy See at the liturgical ceremony.

Also in attendance were Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, archbishop of
Westminster, and the Catholic co-presidents of the two official organisms of
dialogue with the Anglican Communion: the Anglican-Roman Catholic International
Commission and the International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity
and Mission.

"You begin your ministry as archbishop of Canterbury at a painful and tense
moment in history, a moment nonetheless marked by hope and promise," the Pope
wrote in his message.

"Marred by long-standing and seemingly relentless conflicts, the world stands
on the brink of yet another war," he added. "The dignity of the human person is
being threatened and undermined in various ways. Whole populations, especially
the most vulnerable, are living amidst fear and danger."

"At times the ardent and legitimate human longing for freedom and security
manifests itself through the wrong means, means which themselves are violent
and destructive," the papal message added.

"It is precisely amidst these tensions and difficulties of our world that we
are called to serve," the Pope told the Anglican primate.

"We can sincerely rejoice in the fact that, in recent decades, our predecessors
have developed an increasingly close relationship, even bonds of affection,
through constructive dialogue and close communication," John Paul II wrote.

"They set the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion on a path that they
hoped would lead to full communion," he said.

"Despite disagreements and obstacles, we are still on that path, and
irrevocably committed to it," the Pope affirmed.

"Over the past decade, the various opportunities to meet Dr. George Carey have
been particularly helpful and encouraging, signs of progress on our ecumenical
journey," the Pope added, referring to Archbishop Williams' predecessor.

"The work of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission, and the more
recently formed International Commission for Unity and Mission, continue to
move us forward," the papal message stated.

"We are both aware that overcoming divisions is no easy task, and that full
communion will come as a gift of the Holy Spirit," he said.

"That same Spirit prods and guides us even now to continue to seek a resolution
to remaining areas of doctrinal disagreement, and to engage more profoundly in
common witness and mission," the message concluded.

#191593 03/03/03 05:19 AM
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Posted by Remie:

"What has happened to the Latin Church recently must be an example of what we must avoid."

Dear Remie,

I am not sure what you mean. :rolleyes:

What specifically has happened to the Latin Church recently that led to this comment? What harmful influence has Protestantism had that caused whatever happened?

What must we avoid; protestants who have been baptised into Christ? Or is it the Latin Church?

Seems that we have a lot to avoid, eh? But who or what is it exactly?

Since I'm Latin Catholic and have protestant relatives, avoidance behavior will be hard to do! biggrin

Thanks!

Steve

#191594 03/04/03 02:34 PM
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I got this from *hmmm* 'oh dear' *hmm* Beliefnet:

http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=3752&discussionID=228625

Hmm, sounds a good ceremony - I am guessing that they meant representatives of the Orthodox Patriarchs mentioned. Still, quite an ecumenical gathering, with a benediction concluded by the GO Archbishop Gregorius...

No matter your opinion of certain beliefs that the Archbishop may hold, he is a most wise and intelligent man. Quite a good writer too. I wish him much luck in leading the Anglican Communion through what I am guessing would be a trying period of time...

anton

#191595 03/04/03 04:10 PM
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Dear Anton,

Wel'll have to see how he "skirts around" the issue of women priests as a roadblock to ecumenism with the RC Church . . .

Alex

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