The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
CuriousMarten, Pilgrim500, Waylon, reikan, sadsappysucker
5,754 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (jvf), 120 guests, and 49 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,025
Posts413,826
Members5,754
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
D
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
Quote
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Before anyone else complains that the U.S. isn't treating its illegal immigrants from Mexico humanely enough, perhaps they should look at how Mexico treats its OWN illegal immigrants?

...
Theist Gal:

Christ is Risen!

Unless I missed it, I've not seen anyone post a complaint here that the US, ie, Churches, state and other charitable organizations is not treating illegal immigrants "humanely enough."

The complaint has been against the bill passed by the House of Representatives, which would call that humanitarian aid a crime.

There was a recent documentary on the National Geographic Channel (?), which followed the trek of two young men from Guatemala through Mexico to the US. Unlawful immigration into Mexico is a crime. The train in Mexico City in the article you cited is called "el tren del muerto," the death train. Death for those shot by police or soldiers, or death for those trying to hop on the moving train. The young men were victims of police/military brutality/bribery and victims of the "coyotes," the human smugglers.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,620
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,620
Likes: 7
Quote
Father Deacon John Montalvo wrote:
Unless I missed it, I've not seen anyone post a complaint here that the US, ie, Churches, state and other charitable organizations is not treating illegal immigrants "humanely enough."

The complaint has been against the bill passed by the House of Representatives, which would call that humanitarian aid a crime.
This is not accurate. The cardinal archbishop of Los Angeles keeps repeating this but it is not accurate. The original legislation was never intended to make it illegal to give humanitarian assistance to those in need who are in this country illegally. There was some confusion about a poorly worded section of the bill but that was quickly amended to specifically exempt humanitarian assistance. As proposed the law would make it illegal to assist those here illegally to stay here illegally (that is, to hide from the authorities). I cleared this up with a call to my local Congressional representative, Tom Davis.

Father Deacon interestingly points out that Mexico itself is very harsh on illegal immigrants. In Mexico it is considered a felony to be in the country illegally, it is illegal to give even humanitarian assistance to illegals and those caught can be thrown in jail (though usually they are deported, but sometimes they are shot). The southern border of Mexico is very much like an impenetrable wall.

The reform that I support is to protect the borders, building a wall if necessary (I’ve been there and the fence is only 3 foot high in many places and it is also full of holes). Once the border is protected I would reform the immigration laws to make it much easier to come here legally. Since it would not be fair to grant amnesty to those who broke the law (and put them ahead of the millions who are patiently waiting to come here legally) and since it is also impractical to repatriate 12 million illegals I would probably find some sort of compromise (after the border is protected) for a guest worker program that did not and never would lead to citizenship (and that required the learning of English, which I would make the official national language).

I suspect the problem will continue until Mexico finally decides to embrace capitalism instead of merely exporting their poor. Truly, the protests should be occurring in Mexico City against that government.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
D
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
Here are few excerpts from the teachings of Pope John Paul II on the issue of illegal immigration

“The Church in America must be a vigilant advocate, defending against any unjust restriction the natural right of individual persons to move freely within their own nation and from one nation to another. Attention must be called to the rights of migrants and their families and to respect for their human dignity, even in cases of non-legal immigration.”
— Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation
Ecclesia in America of the Holy Father
John Paul II, January 22, 1999.

“‘I was a stranger and you welcomed me’ (Mt 25:35). Today, the illegal migrant comes before us like that ‘stranger’ in whom Jesus asks to be recognized. To welcome him and to show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself.”
— Pope John Paul II, Annual Message for
World Migration Day 1996.

The Roman Catholic Bishops of Arizona and the Byzantine Catholic Eparch of Van Nuys issued the following Pastoral Letter on December 12, 2005, the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

You Welcomed Me

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
I agree with Theist-Gal and the Administrator.

They raise very good points. But unfortunately, it seems like it falls on many deaf ears in this forum.

Those (deaf ones) have been adamnant to believe everything the Church says about illegal immigration and disregard for the law of the land as well as our national security.

The reason I've been fuming a lot of anger about this issue towards the posters is because basically the big impression I'm getting from them as well as the Church in America is that they're shrugging their shoulders as if it's "Oh well, no biggie here, we'll help the illegals anyway" kind of attitude. So much apathy towards the Americans, so much indifference about the illegals breaking the laws, bringing in diseases, causing problems for our educational system, urban sprawls, identity thefts, frauds, receiving Social Security checks (paid for by tax-payers), etc.

Some of the posters exclaimed "What about Charity?" Well I'll exclaim this, "What about Charity towards Americans and the American laws?"

Even "What about obedience of the law?" (Yes, it's in the Baltimore Catechsim saying that obeying the law of the land falls under "Honor Father and Mother" clause of the 10 Commandments).

I'm tired of the people and the Church shrugging their shoulders with this "oh well" attitude. That's why I've been fuming about this.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
American Citizen

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
Here are few excerpts from the teachings of Pope John Paul II on the issue of illegal immigration

“The Church in America must be a vigilant advocate, defending against any unjust restriction the natural right of individual persons to move freely within their own nation and from one nation to another. Attention must be called to the rights of migrants and their families and to respect for their human dignity, even in cases of non-legal immigration.”
— Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation
Ecclesia in America of the Holy Father
John Paul II, January 22, 1999.

“‘I was a stranger and you welcomed me’ (Mt 25:35). Today, the illegal migrant comes before us like that ‘stranger’ in whom Jesus asks to be recognized. To welcome him and to show him solidarity is a duty of hospitality and fidelity to Christian identity itself.”
— Pope John Paul II, Annual Message for
World Migration Day 1996.

The Roman Catholic Bishops of Arizona and the Byzantine Catholic Eparch of Van Nuys issued the following Pastoral Letter on December 12, 2005, the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

You Welcomed Me
I completely DISAGREE with John Paul II on this issue.

Why don't 5 million people come storm into the Vatican and reside there? WHY NOT? Then we'll see what the Pope says then. eek

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,620
Likes: 7
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,620
Likes: 7
Thank the Lord that the Holy Fathers teaching here is not binding. At best, what he and the bishops have spoken here is incomplete. Hospitality and fidelity to Christ do not require rejecting the right of a country to secure its own borders and to control immigration.

I support legal immigration and reforming our laws to make it legal for more immigrants to come to America. It is perfectly appropriate to offer humanitarian assistance to those who have broken legitimately enacted immigration laws while at the same time calling for an enforcement of those laws. A nation that cannot secure its own borders will quickly cease to be a nation at all.

It really bothers me that so many are willing to say “screw you” to those patiently waiting to come here legally from other countries while supporting those who break our laws by crossing our borders illegally. I support making it a felony to be here illegally (like it is in both Mexico and the European Union). Those caught should be deported immediately. I also support making the non-humanitarian assistance to those here illegally a felony). Give them food and treat them well as they are deported, but it should be a felony to help them stay here illegally.

Only when we force countries like Mexico to reform to make the lives of their people better will we have real Christian solidarity. As long as we let them be and make excuses for them keeping their people in poverty there will be no real Christian solidarity.

I urge everyone to contact their elected representatives to ask them to use every possible means to stop illegal immigration. If it means calling up the National Guard and placing them at the border to shoot those who come across illegally, so be it.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 473
Quote
If you wish to make accusations, I'd suggest you educate yourself on the appropriate legal terminology. Unlawful or illegal immigration is not (yet) a crime in the US, it is a civil offense. There is a world of difference in the law between a criminal offense and a civil offense. All criminals are law-breakers, but not all law-breakers are criminals.
Dear Deacon Montalvo,

In fact if you re-read my post I first refer to the "undocumented foreigners living in the United States" as an "illegal Aliens". From my understating of the law - this is a fitting term.

I then used the term 'criminal aliens' which arguably is more realistic term because everyone in Washington DC knows that most of these people are committing felonies (ie: criminal behavior) by using false / fake social insurance numbers to seek employment. These are not civil infractions. Further, they are NOT IMMIGRANTS as defined by USA law - legal or illegal.

Further, a bill before congress seeks to make living and working in the United States without a valid visa or citizenship - a felony (ie: criminal behavior). As is, you can be deported for not having the proper documentation.

The term "criminal alien" is within 12 months of become a legal term, whereas "illegal immigrant" is - well nothing but wishfull thinking on the part of 11,000,000 undocumented foreigners living in this country.

The problem is that relatively speaking (ie; as compared to 1900) we live a very complex economies with integrated social services which would COMPLETELY COLLAPSE if we formaly admited millions of people with no education and no real professional skills. Most of these people can barely live on the wages they are earning. They can't save for retirement so our Social Security fund which is expected to be short by a couple of trillion dollars for the well educated and productive baby boomers will be even further stressed by these people who never actually pay into it.

I'm not picking on Mexicans. I rather like them and think they are good hard working people and very spiritual. At least my comments are NOT DIRECTED at Mexicans at all but rather at the millions of people who feel they are above the law do not have to play by the rules. There are millionS, no scratch that, billions of people around the world who want to immigrate to the USA. Let the government do what it has done for generations - select who those who should be admitted.

I Love people from South America and Mexico - that's not the issue !

I.F.

PS; I had stated there were 500,000 criminal aliens from Brazil in the Boston area. There are in fact 250,000 in Massachusetts and a total of about 500,00 in New England.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
I think what really has me irritated is that Cardinal Mahoney has stated that if the bill is passed he would ORDER all his priests to disobey it.

Now I would have no problem if he said he would give his priests PERMISSION to disobey it - but it should be left to their individual consciences, not ORDERED. That just really bugs me.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 120
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 120
"In 2002, Mexico had a 96 percent vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with an immunization rate of 79 percent for 2-year-olds in the United States."
from the National Institute of Health (NIH)

Mexico provides free vaccinations to all children. In fact, Doctors go door to door in urban areas to vaccinate children, as well as to provide check ups.

It is amazing how fear can motivate a population.

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
D
djs Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
I am glad to hear that Tom Davis thinks the language of the (mercifully dead) house bill has been fixed and that "humanitarian" aid will not be criminalized. Of course, it would ultimately be in the hands of law enforcement, prosecutors, and the courts, to ultimatley probe the meaning of "humanitarian". I think that the house bill as amended would still make the work Carole described a felony.


Fr. Deacon John, thanks very much for the words of a saint on these matters.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
D
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,680
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:
Thank the Lord that the Holy Fathers teaching here is not binding. At best, what he and the bishops have spoken here is incomplete. Hospitality and fidelity to Christ do not require rejecting the right of a country to secure its own borders and to control immigration.

...

If it means calling up the National Guard and placing them at the border to shoot those who come across illegally, so be it.
Christ is Risen!

When a Christian chooses to disregard a fundamental teaching of the Faith, he or she can always rely upon the notion that "the teaching is not binding." HOWEVER, I seem to recall that Christ did give the power "to bind and loose" to Peter, the Apostles, and their successors.

I admit I struggle with teachings of the Church, but I understand the problem is my reluctance to conform my will to God's. It would be easier to conform my will to "the teaching is not binding."

I am disheartened to read that the Administrator advocates the shooting of unarmed men, women, and children. There are certainly more humane ways to secure the borders than to shoot unarmed civilians.

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,244
Likes: 10
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,244
Likes: 10
Admin,

"If it means calling up the National Guard and placing them at the border to shoot those who come across illegally, so be it."

Yes, shoot those who are trying to escape poverty, that is what Christ would want. I am shocked the above statement came from your hand. You are above such simplistic and reactionary thinking.

I don't support illegal immigration but killing is never the answer.

"This is the Resurrection Day.
Let us be enlightened by this Feast
and let us embrace one another.
Let us call "Brethren" even those who hate us
and in the Resurrection forgive everything; and let us sing:

Christ is risen from the dead,
trampling down Death by death,
and to those in the tombs bestowing life!"

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Now come on, do you guys really think our esteemed Administrator really means blood & gore shooting the illegals? Do you really think he's that un-Christian? Come on, really! :rolleyes:

I think he's speaking figure of speech...

I would prefer HIGH VOLTAGE fence KEEP them OUT.

It seems like nothing's keeping them out in spite of our troops, border patrols, etc. They still manage to get in. But with HIGH VOLTAGE fence, they would think TWICE before they even THINK about crossing the borders.

They "KNOW" that they're breaking the law by unlawful entry. If they don't then why are they hiding? That's because they KNOW for sure they broke the law. But yet they demand automatic citizenship through amnesty! Outrageous!

OF COURSE!!! NOBODY WILL BE ELECTRICUTED if they did NOT attempt to enter the borders! So therefore, nobody will get hurt at all! Therefore, nobody will get killed or anything. So there's nothing wrong with that at all. Since no one would get hurt so that means there's no immorality in that. It's a means to make them KNOW that they better not enter the USA unlawfully.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,881
I would like to thank the government of Egypt for not closing their borders to Roman controlled Palestine during the reign of King Herod to the Holy Family.

The above postings sound like the Berlin wall or the Iron Curtain.

ICXC
NIKA

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 427
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 427
It might be worth looking at what makes these people so desperate to come here that they are more than willing to risk death to get here. And once here they are willing to live in abeject poverty.

Stop and ask yourself, "WHY? Why would anyone be willing to die to come here."

Then ask yourself if our laws can be made better.

Then take your righteous indignation and your anger toward these people and do something with it instead of just griping. Work for change. Focus on working with lawmakers to write immigration laws that are fair and equitable. Focus on working for legislation that makes the laws easy to understand, interpret and implement.

If miles of scorching desert or 90 miles of open sea won't stop them from coming a fence isn't going to do it either.

The thing that concerns me about the responses here is the hatred being directed at human beings who are, by and large trying to escape something horrible to come to something "better". But look at the life of the average illegal immigrant and ask yourself ... "If that is 'better' then what in Heaven's name are they running from?" What could be so bad that you'd be willing to risk your life to get here to live as they do.

Try some compassion. Then work for change without the hatred and venom and vitriol.

Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5