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I think chapels are nice but sometimes they could bring forth a certain damage to the community, believe it or not. Let me tell you what has happened to our parish here in the city of Curitiba. In the past our church was packed and full of people working together and growing nicely, all of a sudden chapels started to appear in a number of neighbourhoods and these people started to attend the Liturgy at these chapels instead of at the main church. The result was that One big and strong community was ripped up and divided into 4 smaller ones and consequently I guess you can imagine what the result is.
Lauro

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I think Alex means that the chapels are near or physically attached to the church-structure. If a parish is too bing for everyone to attend one Divine Liturgy, extras can be celebrated in the chapels. Also, i have been to many churches that have chapels for daily services, since fewer come, and then there is not a need to heat up or prepare the big main space.

In Christ,
Adam

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

Perhaps you could shape your paper bag in the form of an episcopal mitre? wink
Alex
Actually, paper bags for mitres would be an improvement on some of the episcopal headgear (collapsable mitres that look as though they were bought at K-Mart, say) one finds these days. If you go to www.oca.org you can, however, cheer yourself up by seeing splendidly arrayed hierarchs. I myself limit my visits to that sight to help cure me of the passion known to some of the Desert Fathers as "Vestment Envy" biggrin

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Dear Adam,

I once had an Ethiopian priest's mitre.

But I gave it to an OCA priest friend who has been receiving Ethiopians into the OCA lately.

It was purple with brass decorations, truly beautiful!

Alex

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Adam, there is also the very excellent site of the Eparchy of Ekaterinburg if one wants to see some splendidly vested hierarchs, priests, deacons, subdeacons, etc. http://orthodox.etel.ru/Photo/i2004.htm

Sometimes one even passes from the "vestment envy" stage into a deeper passion, of "vestment drooling". smile

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Dear Diak,

Our clergy won't be so splendidly attired . . .

Alex

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And why is that, Alex?

It seems to me that the average Eastern Catholic parish priest is adorned about the same as the average Orthodox parish priest, but the EC hierarchs seem to be adorned in nice vestments far less than EO hierarchs.

So, why is this? Is it for fiscal reasons- - -do the EC's just not have enough money for the really nice hierarchical vestments?

I admit it does bother me, and sits in the back of my mind, because I'm very aesthetic person; adornment in church means something to me.

Logos Teen

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Teen:

If you look around the web, for example, at pictures from various pilgrimages, I think you will find our bishops in fine, traditional vestments. So I am very curious: what do you think is missing, and where do you get that idea?

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Dear Teen Logo,

It seems to me that our Orthodox clergy have more colourful vestments than many of our EC clergy up here - don't know why exactly that is.

It could be that some parishes find artificial ways to be separate from the Orthodox.

When it comes to traditions like kissing a priest's hand, a number of our modern priests just don't like that.

(I'm often asked, when I kiss a priest's hand, if I was born in Eastern Europe etc.).

In some parish circles up here there is a kind of "fear" that if one approaches the Orthodox traditions too closely, then one will get "infected with schism."

I'm NOT making that term up, I"ve heard it used many times over the years by those who should know better.

The Ukrainian religious writer, Eugene Ivankiw from Hal's Chicago parish of Sts. Volodymyr and Olha used to poke fun at that idea.

For example, he reviewed the translation or "remake" of the liturgical books published by the Basilians and noted how "and the Son" was added here and there . . .

He said, "it is obvious the compilers don't want the faithful who will be using those books to get 'infected with schism.'" wink

This was also why we now commemorate the Pope of Rome no less than four times during the Liturgy and once more for the "Many Years" commemorations.

The Melkites just do it once, the way it really should be done ( and was done after the Union of Brest).

Eventually, it was felt that monstrances, statues et al. were not enough to keep the EC's with Rome (given the sporadic reunifications with Orthodoxy at various times e.g. under the formerly EC Met. Josef Siemashko who brought 3 million EC's over to Orthodoxy) - more frequent papal commemorations were added.

It is only now that most parish priests here are wearing pectoral Crosses, for example.

The Basilians and Redemptorists refuse to do this still and continue to maintain their Western cassocks etc.

Alex

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Thanks, Alex. I was unaware of the Siemashko case. It seems EC's like to join Orthodoxy in the threes of millions (cf. Fr. Alexis Toth and Archbishop +Ireland controversy). wink

Glad to know traditional Eastern Christianity is making headway in your EC parishes up there!

Djs,

I really can't put my finger on it. It just seems that, of the websites I've seen, the EC hierarchs are much less colorful than their 'Dox counterparts. I didn't mean it offensively, these are simply my observations.

Logos Teen

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Originally posted by djs:
Teen:

If you look around the web, for example, at pictures from various pilgrimages, I think you will find our bishops in fine, traditional vestments. So I am very curious: what do you think is missing, and where do you get that idea?
Some of them, perhaps most, are reasonably decently attired; but there are three major problems in my opinion: (1) great omophorions made of cheap felt and plastic jewels and cut in an obvious imitation of the Latin pallium only bigger; (ii) a failure to dress properly (ie., like a monastic) when not fully vested; and (iii), most egregious and appalling of all, these collapsable mitres with cartoonish icons and fake jewels whose provenance is clearly that of the little prizes one gets upon frequent visitation of the gumball machines in one's local shopping mall.

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Let's start here. [Linked Image]

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1) great omophorions made of cheap felt and plastic jewels and cut in an obvious imitation of the Latin pallium only bigger; (ii) a failure to dress properly (ie., like a monastic) when not fully vested; and (iii), most egregious and appalling of all, these collapsable mitres with cartoonish icons and fake jewels whose provenance is clearly that of the little prizes one gets upon frequent visitation of the gumball machines in one's local shopping mall.
It is difficult if not impossible to tell from net images the quality of material, or jewels. THe idea of making an evaluation on this information is what prompted my question to TotIL.

The cut of omophorions has been discussed before; some find it just dreadful, others like the fact that it stays in place without constant readjustment. I find the issue to be, as Bishop Shepetsky remarked in a similar context, absurd Byzantinism, or as Alex puts it BS.

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djs, perhaps you did inadvertently take his comments out of context. Blessed Andrey comments on Byzantinism were referring to those who try to make artificial dogmatic significance out of externals, and had nothing to do with the aesthetics of beautiful worship in the Constantinopolitan tradition.

There is nothing wrong with desiring the beauty that the chronicler Nestor records of St. Vladimir's envoys encountered. It certainly should not become an obsession; but desiring to return to a more full celebration of the Constantinopolitan tradition in all of its outward manifestations is not a negative thing.

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