www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall "The Orthodox Catholic Church of America?"

You're kidding, right?

I mean there are those that beleive the Jehova's Witnesses bring people "closer to God". Does that make their heretical ministry someting good?

I think it matters a great deal how they bring people "closer to God".

I can just see the tag line now, "Bringing people closer to God, one heresy at a time." :rolleyes:

I have to agree with you. Syncretism and Modernism are rampant in every sector - even the Church is reeling from their toxic effects. Add political correctness to the mix, and it's no wonder so many can't discern the lines between right and wrong.

It was always my understanding that we in the Eastern Tradition accept the belief that while we can have a good idea where God is, we can never know where He is not. So I'm willing to give groups like this the benefit of the doubt. Kinda like the Orthodox do with the Catholics. And I stand by my assertation that if they bring one person closer to God they are doing His work. I seem to remember a little story in the Gospels where the Apostles come to Jesus complaining because someone not of their number was performing miracles in His name, and they asked Jesus to make them stop. You might want to look up the story and see what His response was to them.

You were doing okay until you got to the snarky ending. I often wonder why people have to end their tirades with a snippy little ending ...

But putting that aside. First of all I have to question what "closer to God" means. That is a subjective statement that is impossible to measure. How do you know that they are leading people to God and not further from God?

And using the "closer to God" benchmark ... does that make any heresy necessary to bring someone closer to God okay?

As an example I asked about the Jehova's Witnesses. They deny the trinity. If they bring someone "closer to God" by teaching a heretical belief that denies the Trinity is that His work?

Dear Friends,

Actually, it is a good point to say that these groups often contain a kernel or more of error in their ways - or soon descend to it.

Apart from their idiosyncratic teachings on the "church" from their various points of view, conversations I've carried on with a number of these seemed to indicate to me more than one error in their general theology.

I still don't quite know why one group canonized Pelagius!

Alex

I don't think it would be out of line to say that , IF, they 'celebrate' so-called 'same-sex unions', they are no longer a Christian sect/cult and have self-relegated themselves to the arena of the benighted in darkness. They have removed themselves from the catholicity, and the Faith and dogma. A very dangerous situation indeed. Mik

You might want to look up the story and see what His response was to them. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Dear Unbeliever..(as you call yourself..in 'profile') This is not a matter of 'oh, I can read the Scripture, so I have the self proclaimed right to also self-interpret Scripture. I was exactly in that position for nearly 3 decades, and I speak from experience. When the Protestants/Reformers get their panties up in a twist about the Pope/Holy Father/Bishop of Rome speaking 'ex cathera', ...they are many times speaking from a type of jeolosy or envy, for 'they' want to do just that...interpret Scripture on "their own terms" and usually for their own purposes. Truth has a way of outing the indiscriminate, and the deceivers. Just a few cents, Mikhailo S Bohom Hristos Voskres

Dear Karen you said:

I say:

I find that too many times people want to make God into their own image, rather than the other way around. They take the 'Word' and decide this is the way I read it. But that can exist with individuals within a 'true' Church also. Actually it can even exist within an individual church that is part of a 'true' orthodox Church...or so I've experienced.

As for the women twirling around with incense, I recall seeing the cathedral in L.A. and it reminded me of the pagan rituals of ancient Greece. Or at least, the movie versions of the pagan rituals. Oh well! :rolleyes:

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Dear Carole:

I don't believe that Jehovah Wittness' are a heresy. It is a Jewish religion, not a Christian one...or at least a take on Judaism. They follow the Old Testament.

As for the Mormons, someone said that they are their own religion completely. Again not a heresy. The Muslims though, are a heresy, as far as I can tell. It seems they evolved from one of our ancient heresies, such as Arianism...or so they say. No doubt they want to impress on us that they were the original inhabitants of Spain and were kicked out unjustly.

Zenovia

How can the JW's be anything other than heretics?

They claim to be Christian (followers of Christ). They teach using the entire Bible, including the New Testament. They celebrate a Eucharist once a year. And they deny the divinity of Christ.

That is not Judaism (or even a sect of Judaism).

That is heresy.

Read for yourself what they say about Jesus Christ. Should we believe in the Trinity? [watchtower.org]

Mormons, too, claim to believe in and be followers of Jesus Christ. And they too have a heretical depiction of who Jesus is.

As for Muslims, well at least they make no claims to be followers of Jesus Christ. They are admittedly followers of the "Prophet" Muhammed. Which is a far cry different from the JWs and Mormons who claim to be followers of the same Jesus Christ whom we worship and follow. But their teachings about Jesus are heretical.

That is they are in direct opposition to the dogmatic teachings of the Church.

We'll have to agree to disagree here because there is, to my mind, no definition for those who claim to be Christians but teach false doctrine about Christ except "heretic".

Carole,

i have to agree with you. Such were the gnostics, the arians, etc. etc.

Peace,
the_grip

As per the Grip, ditto for me also.

Dear Zenovia, the Watchtower and Tract Society is based upon a personal revelation of the Book of the Apocolypse of St. John or Revelation, and was given the "key" to the end of the world. They are wonderful people, and very close to the truth, but have still quite a few major issues.

Based upon this, I believe they are of Christian descent, as opposed to Judaic.

In Christ,

Michael

Dear Carole you said:

You said:

I say:

I don't know much about the Mormons, but someone on this forum that seemed to be quite knowledgable theologically said that the Mormons are a totally different religion. In other words, they are not related to either Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

That they mention Jesus, and accept Him really means nothing. That they accept Him as God's 'Word' becoming flesh in order to redeem us from our sins, means everything.

You said:

I say:

Islam is an outcome of one of the Christian heresies. I believe it was either Nestorianism or Arianism. Again I state I'm not too knowledgable, but it has been called a heresy in the Christian world from the time of it's inception.

Zenovia

Mormons and JWs are not gererally considered Christians at all.

It is my view that Islam is a spin of from Judahism and influenced by various heresies of those days in that part of the world.

ICXC
NIKA

Just saw their website. Looks like a prefab out in a field somewhere, with a bunch of misfits trying to fit in wherever they might. Bless 'em all.

And as to Islam, and anyone who's been reading my posts knows I'm a little, shall we say, RABID on the subject, Islam is not an offshoot of anything except Mohammed's ambition.

We are now about 700 A.D.

Mohammed saw the unity among Jewish and Christian peoples that was lacking in his own people. The peoples of Arabia were unassociated tribes, constantly at war with one another. Their worship was essentially totem or nature-based worship, and it varied from tribe to tribe.

Mohammed saw that the unity of the Jews and Christians was their deep-seated religion. He decided that he would emulate it, and try to get the Arabian peoples united along the same lines. If everyone believed in one deity, it would be a way to unity.

He devised a religion that honored one god, and chose the dominant god of the dominant city of Arabia - Mecca - whose citizens worshipped the Moon God. Mohammed used that god and that symbol to attempt to unite the Arabian peoples. (That is why, incidentally, that the crescent moon is the symbol atop all mosques today.)

Their god is NOT the same as ours - their god is the Moon God.

(How interesting that the Theotokos chose as her symbol her foot upon the crescent moon - but that is the subject of another post.)

Mohammed retained their yearly hajj, since it was so strong a belief among the Meccans of that time. The Ka'aba (the square building around which the Mohammedans process every year) houses a meteorite, and the people of that time believed that the Moon God had flung this stone to earth, and so they worshipped it. To foster unity, Mohammed continued this custom - even though Ali said to him, "I will worship this if you tell me to, but it is just a rock."

Even so, the Meccans wanted nothing to do with Mohammed, and chased him out of town. He hid in Medina, and found brigands who would join him, especially when he told them that Allah said that taking what you wanted from unbelievers (after you had offered them to join you, and they refused) was permissable. They became a formidable force, and returned to Mecca in such strength that the city immediately capitulated.

Mohammed believed that the Jews and Christians of the Middle East would decide to join him too. That is why the early suras are rather accepting of Jewish and Christian beliefs, as an incentive for them to join him. However, they had their own religions, and were not interested in his. That is why the later suras are so full of hatred towards these peoples, such as the sura that states, "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them." And as we know, this command was followed with a vengeance.

As pertains to Islam, it is pertinent to remember the following two vital things.

(This is what tells me where Islam truly comes from.)

1. We acknowledge order in the world, and that God is the Divine Architect. 2+2 will always equal 4. In Islam, there are no absolutes, no order. All is changeable, from one moment to the next, as Allah wills. Allah can choose what is true one moment, and can decide that it shall be false the next. 2+2 does not always equal 4.

If there is no order nor absolutes in the world, we are faced with Chaos. Who is the Father of Chaos?

2. What is true in the world (a.k.a., the truth about Mohammed and Islam) must be hidden away and not spoken of. We are required to remember Mohammad as a hero, a visionary, a man of God. Islam is a religion of peace. To say otherwise is uncharitable. To say otherwise to a Muslim is to ask for death. Lies must supplant the truth.

If truth must be hidden, only lies remain. Who is the Father of Lies?

Trinity

Dear Trinity,

First of all, that is quite a stunning avatar you have!

Many of us probably feel the same way about the beliefs of the religion of Islam. As Christians, we believe that we embrace the Truth and we must always be vigilant about those religions and cults that would tell us otherwise. We must be well read and informed about our own beliefs as well as the beliefs of those others.

I thank you for clearly stating the facts. I too, have read alot of what you have written.

The Church Fathers as well as contemporary Fathers tell us that we must bridle our passions and thoughts...discussing topics in a calm manner is fine and does not arouse the 'passions'.

Welcome to the forum!

In the Risen Christ,
Alice