This entire thread, and Alexandr's post in particular, resounds within me. I think there are plenty of people who have looked into the eastern rite churches (I have no experience with Orthodoxy in this regard and will not speak for it) who have found the opposite to be the case:

The only place that one can learn to become Eastern Catholic is on the Internet. The trouble is, in our Latinized age, we are required to self-teach.

If a person was genuinely drawn to the eastern practices, theology, spirituality, etc and found himself at a Latinized parish, what would you recommend he do? If he came here to learn more, would you tell him it was wrong? If he went there and found something very different than he was expecting, would you find him at fault, or would you blame the parish? If a convert, after years of attendance, questioned the public rosary recitation before liturgy, would you blame it on convertitis?

This does point out the importance of the church being true to the faith and traditions passed on to her so that those who visit can be properly taught. And there is a point one crosses which becomes almost comical as Alexandr described. As Father Anthony pointed out, the comical display comes from a shallowness of faith. What of the convert whose wishes come from a depth of faith? Is he forever relegated to the shadows, forbidden from speaking of such things, because he wasn't chrismated as an infant? There is a place and a need for the zeal of converts. It is afterall what spread our faith so far and wide. I doubt so many would have willingly died for their faith if they did not have such zeal for their beliefs. Perhaps if those born into the faith were not so complacent about their faith, they would not be offended by the convert's zeal.

In actuality, I think there is a medium, where some cradles fall to the left and some converts fall to the right, but they tend to temper each other and pull each other toward the middle. The problem is when the two extremes come together and there is no one in the middle who can find a common ground.

In my own experience, it was not the run of the mill differences which bothered or affected me. It was those in the extreme who were complacent or bored with their faith. It was those people who didn't seem to care. It wasn't that they had something different, but the impression I had was that they didn't know (much less appreciate) what they had at all. That really affected me--like a punch in the gut of my soul. Thankfully, I was not surrounded by them. By the sounds of many on this board, I can't help but believe that many others who walked in my shoes had much to grieve over when they found that the faith they had come to love was not to be found where it ought to have been. I know that many born into the faith here mourn those losses and have a zeal to bring back the church's sense of self and time-honored theology, spirituality, and traditions. Is their attempt comical? Is their attempt in vain?

For the sake of the Barsenuphius Theophylacts of the world, I hope not. Because if some more people in the church don't start showing some pride in their traditions, some zeal in their faith, some conviction in their beliefs, the church will die off and all her potential faithful will be ommm-ing in Tibet.

Amen!

Wondering - Well said!

~Isaac

I am sure that we all have our horror stories about "plus catholique que le papa" types, whether we are Eastern or Latin, it matters not (how Yoda of my syntax). I know of a fomer Fundamentalist turned (Latin) Catholic who had suceeded in making a horse's hiney of himself in the diocesan paper when he sang songs about the Latin Mass (it is a beautiful liturgy, but I am Eastern and like mine a bit better). he wrote a letter saying that Latin was the everyday language of the Vatican, when in wrote Father Roark, who had studied at the Vatican wrote back that it was Italian, NOT Latin that was the everyday language. this convert also let me know that I should be Latin if I wanted to be Catholic :rolleyes: . hello, I am a cradle Catholic who returned from a few years in Mormonism, and it would really tick off my father's sdie of the family if they heard this man telling me that I wasn't Catholic enough.oh, well, wadayagonado? at Seminary, I met ex Catholics who made fools of themselves when holding forth on Catholicism ,and telling cradle Baptists what THEY should be doing.
Much Love,
Jonn

It is very easy for converts who initially are "on fire" to experience discouragement when that enthusiasm wears thin. They need the patient support of the Church community as well as the ordained members.



Porter...prayerfully

Another well said, to you Wondering. Had it not been for the internet, and sites like this, I would never had known there was such a thing as an Eastern Catholic Church. And my sentiments fall right in line with the comments you made.

For me, it was the lofty, deeply mystical and spirtual writings that made a difference. Had I not started at the top of the mountain, I would never have understood or appricated the foundations. To me, conversion is personal. There is no right place to begin, as conversion is of Divine Providence in origin. If someone goes to the extream, be patient with them. Through continued support and God's grace, they will learn balance.

Boy!!!

This is "barking right up my tree!"

Answer number one...why do we converts go around telling others how to practice the very Faith they were born into?

Because.....in order to get over our abhorence of the Catholic or Orthodox Faith, we had to study our brains out. As we did, we found out what the official documents, catechisms, writings, etc. of the Church teach regarding the proper praxis of a believer.

And we don't see "cradles" doing it.

In fact, the behavior of many "cradles" was a source of scandal to us as Protestants -- scandal which kept us from really even considering the Church.

So when we convert, we want not only our lives to be as fully Catholic (or Orthodox) as we can be, we want others to "get in line with the program" also!

Of course, in the process of working this all out, we become a ROYAL PAIN IN THE TUCHAS to our chosen parish!!

I call it "convert fever" and I had a RIP SNORTIN' case of it up until about a year ago!! May God bless all those kind people at St. Ann's who put up with me -- especially those who took me aside and gently offered "course correction."

One thing that you have to understand about Protestantism -- especially certain brands of it -- is that they are really, really big on pietist outward show. Pastors will actually call people to certain kinds of behavior (don't drink alkeehol, don't gamble, don't go to movies, etc.) so that you can be holy.

And since we trust our leaders, we believe that the holiness is in the doing. And while this is not altogher wrong, outward shows of piety, especially in front of other Christians, easily takes place of the real holiness of "being small"...the private prayer corner, the unknown fastings, the anonymous acts of kindness and charity.

As for the issue of being an Irishman in an Eastern European parish....no, I don't try to be something I obviously am not. It took some time for me to become comfortable with the Liturgy because it was so different. But I try to appreciate the beauty that is in the East without compromising my Irishness nor acting like I have to learn Ukrainian or Old Church Slavonic and dress like a Slav peasant!

I actually miss the Anglican form of worship I grew up with, but there is beauty here that I can appreciate without having to go bonkers about it.

And now that I am calmed down considerably (big sigh of relief from the parish faithful!) I am finding the the real work of holiness and growth in the Christian Faith is not only hard work -- it is something I know precious little about.

Pray for me -- a convert -- that now God will lead me away from the superficialities which have been my spiritual life, and draw me to a real spirituality which is both pleasing to Him and certainly less taxing on the parish I belong to!

Brother Ed (we really don't MEAN to be annoying!)

Dear Brother Ed,

GREAT post!

May God bless us, each and every one!
Bill

As far as the converts going overboard, especially the Orthodox ones, it might be a case of really wanting a tradition.

For instance, Christmas and Advent: what does the typical American have but Santa Claus (a horrible substitute for St. Nicholas;) vapid pop songs that are about anything but the Birth of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ; and shopping. Maybe the convert is embracing every little ethinic custom to claim a tradition that was lacking in his/her past.

I feel that way, that's what got me interested in the East. Tolstoy's Where Love Is, God Is was what got me wanting to give my new family a more traditional Christmas and Advent. Now, I'm not going to serve 12 dishes on Christmas Eve, yet. But I think that most Americans are yearning for a connection... to the past, to our ancestors, to something. I think we should try to understand why converts do what they do. In fact, we should ask them why they are doing that ultra-zealous thing they are doing. It will get us to know them better and probably improve our spiritual lives.

And maybe we can add some sensibility to their practices before they go off the deep end.

yes, I know what you say, altar boy, I'm there with you, I am that pain in the duupa. And, yes, I studied much and found much that I found fascinating and real. That what I found is what Prot/Baptist/Fundamentals kinda left out. Hmmm, is it by ignorance, or design, or what...? The point of authority,... for Baptism, for serving the Eucharist, for it all, came into question. So, here I am. mik, ..oh, and , remember 9-1-1.!

My favourite characterization of the convert is the one where an Orthodox convert comes into Church with "prayer ropes dangling from his wrists."

For some people, just one is not enough!

But converts do bring zeal to parishes and inspire cradles to "do better."

A friend who became Orthodox would make the Sign of the Cross over everything, especially ever morsel of food he would put into his mouth . . .

We were in a coffee shop and a Polish lady shouted out loud, "Vat a vanderfool boy you var!"

She shouted this every time he made the Sign of the Cross over something.

As we drove off, he crossed himself in the car and as I looked around to see why . . . he quietly said, "Do you see that hill over there?"

"There is a cemetery behind it . . ."

"An Orthodox cemetery?" I asked . . .

I never got the answer to that one.

God bless you converts, every one!

Just be careful with all those prayer ropes on your wrists . . . make sure they're not too, too long . . .

Alex

Great story Alex!

Love in Christ,
Alice

I really think some are missing the point here. This is not a place for stories about converts but instead how to bring about healthy spiritual conversions instead of these people that think by embracing the externals they are embracing a faith. We all have plenty of tories of converts, but what are you doing to help foster a healthy conversion for that person, that they do not have to look for externals to make people believe they have embraced a faith?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Bless, Father Anthony,

Well, if you have a convert story as good as Alice says mine is, I'm listening!

That person I related about used all those "externals" to demarcate some real spiritual space for himself.

It was easy for me as a CEC (Cradle Eastern Catholic) to look with a critical eye at all those "externals."

Yet, I now know that that is how he began his early Orthodox spiritual journey.

For him, conversion meant a complete conversion.

He was truly "putting on Christ" and rejecting the spirit of the world and worse.

He wanted to shout his Orthodox faith from the rooftops.

He is now an OCA priest and when I met him for lunch the other day, he came to the legislature in his black flowing priestly robe, silver neck cross - and yes, his prayer rope.

Although he only had one this time . . .

Externals are important since they are tools of witness and can really express one's state of conversion, faith commitment, in this day and age of indifference.

As he walked down the halls, people stopped to greet him, RC's kissed his hand as he blessed them with the Sign of the Cross etc.

Externals to be sure.

But that convert taught this cradle (and I'm sure many others by now) what real witnessing to Christ in today's world is all about.

That convert doesn't need to hear anything from sinful little me about improving his spiritual life.

And his bishop personally thanked me for "bringing him to Orthodoxy, to us."

My jaw dropped as I said, "Vladyko, I just came along for lunch at that coffee shop!"

Kissing your right hand, I again invoke your blessing,

Alex

Dear Alice,

Thank you, dear friend!

Stories (and cats) are what really make life worth living, don't you think?

Alex