Jeffery Tucker's column I Hate Converts (and I Am One) appears today on BeliefNet. He says that: "Many Catholic newbies insist on lecturing the rest of us on how we should live our faith. They should chill for a while." http://www.beliefnet.com/story/198/story_19843_1.html

While I am sure that this happens when anyone "converts" to another religion, opinion or even a political party, why is this? Is Tucker correct? If one does not temper that excitement about "finding the truth" :rolleyes: I feel that it can actually turn people off about God and the Church and do more harm to precious souls truly seeking Christ. Fr. Robert Stern from CNEWA talks about his view of "conversion" http://www.cnewa.org/mag-article-bodypg-us.aspx?articleID=3204.

Now, as I get older, I realize that the fire of enthusiasm belongs in the fireplace of my heart and that it is important not to burn people up around me in the name of goodness, truth or any well-intentioned "ism". Sharing my faith in Christ means just that, "sharing" not force-feeding. I pray that the Lord will make me an instrument of His peace.

Ray

Here is a very good essay om the same subject by the OCA priest, Fr John Garvey. It really does "jive" with my experiences of some Orthodox converts (and yes, i am one too

http://www.dneoca.org/articles/typology0197.html

I wonder if this is the Jeffery Tucker of the Mises Institute, also Editor of Musica Sacra magazine, director of the St. Cecilia's Cantorum, and frequent contributor to Shawn's website? Being the Tridentine buff he is, I can hardly imagine him being terrily comfortable with altarboygirs either.

I usually like his articles a lot and here he makes a lot of good points.

But:

'Pretends'? That's pretty damned presumptuous of him to say. Not to mention condescending to the East ('exotic') as well as this person. (Well, nobody's perfect, even a guy as smart and perceptive as him.) So ethnic Germans aren't supposed to like let alone adopt Near Eastern stuff... according to whom? (Which encyclical is that from?) Erm... is he falling into his own trap?

I'm sure many of the high-church 'vostochnik' ('Easternite') minority of Byzantine Catholics who've come from somewhere else, often the Roman Rite, have been on the receiving end of this nonsense. Including from some (not all!) Roman Riters who resent you for 'leaving', which is what Tucker sounds like in this snippet.

Anyway, getting back to the main point, I found this blog post a good answer and antidote to the problem:

On making apologetical points - or not.

A story that happens to be from the Orthodox tradition.

Peace out!

Interesting article, but at times I found Tucker's denunciation of convert habits to be just as tiresome as the habits themselves!

And what's wrong with hanging a crucifix (or icon) in every room, or asking a priest to bless your car? Okay, getting your socks blessed is a little much, but genuine acts of piety aren't wrong! And, as Serge noted, his calling an Eastern parish "exotic" and judging his friend's motives for liking that church's culture is just silly.

Tucker's "hate" towards converts might just be hatred directed at himself in his previous convert form.

Dave, not a convert

Ah Dave, evidently you have never met a true Mnogopravoslavnie convert. It goes like this: You are standing in the back of the Church, assisting the babyshki with their coats and filling the candle boxes. In walks in a young family. The father figure is in his early 30's, with hair in a pony tail and a beard that has not seen scissors in years. As he takes off his fur coat, he is waring a rybashka with a belt, cossack pants and high boots (or if is really up there, oonychi- bast sandals!). Mama is next with not 1, but 3 scarves wrapped tightly around her head and wearing a hand stiched festival dress from Tuala province. The children are all lined up, military fashion in maching rybashki and boots. They proceed to enter the Church, and fling themselves in full prostrations 3 times each as they light approx. 150 candles! As I approach them to let them know that they don't have to prostate for each candle, naturally I speak in Russian, assuming that they are straight off the boat from Dzedyshkagorod in the Northern Theibad. Much to my surprise, none of them speak Russian! It turns out that Barsenuphius Theophylact used to be Harry Smith, and is a convert from the Episcopal Church. Ok, all well and good. But during the service, one notices Barsenuphius becoming agitated. It appears that Father is not doing the full Monastic service. He has omitted several irmoi and polielai has been shortened to only 1/2 hour. Barsenuphius grabs his children in disgust and goes looking for a "True" Church that doesn't cater to people who are not willing to stand for 12 hour Saturday Vigil services. He has heard of a church only 300 miles away, under Archbishop Epitikimaximus, the last "true" bishop on earth, who does full Athonite style services everyday. There he is happy wearing his hair shirt, with 70 pounds of chains hanging around his neck, kneeling on bricks at home because his "starets", Bishop Epitikimaximus, has told him to mortify the flesh. But the telling this is, in 2 years, Barsenuphius Theophylact and his family are nowhere to be seen. He has decided that all Christians are heretics, and he and his family are now living in Tibet, practicing tantric Buddhism. Oh and Barsenuphius Theophylact is now called "OM".

This is what used to be known as the "Covert Disease"

Alexandr

Alexandr-
I'm new to the forum and thus far have only 'lurked'
THIS one however has me laughing so hard I'm crying!
Thanks,
Andras

Dear Andras,

Yes, it is funny, but I have actually seen such behavior. A wise Hieromonk once told me that to find God, one must become small. I didn't understand him at the time, but over the many years since, it has become known to me what he meant. Those closest to God are not the names we read in the paper, or prominent in Church affairs. God's closest are the young girl hiding behind the column, so that she can say her prayers undisturbed, the old monk who hides away in a cave, the mentally handicapped, small children, you catch my drift. God is not found in clothing, appearances, language. These are tools that we use, but one must never mistake the tools for the final result. And that, ultimately is what is so sad about convertitis.

Alexandr

I think I have met him at Divine Liturgy. He does sound familiar.

Actually I found the story amusing, and maybe true in some instances. But while we are chuckling, I would like our posters to think for a few moments. The truth in the above story shows a lacks of spiritual depth and for those that have come to the faith, and that almost no one is helping form the convert in proper growth spiritually.

I gave a talk a number of years ago on the conversion process, and it is amazing that we help those seeking the faith until the day they are received into the church, then we walk away from them leaving them to their own devices in developing further along the spiritual path. It is like a mother nurturing her unborn child until it is born, and then abandoning it and letting it starve to death expecting it to care for itself.

If you truly look at the conversion process, converts are the newborns into the faith, and need to fed spiritually even after to reception so that they grow spiritually. It is the role not only for the parish priest, but also the godparents and others that help bring them into the faith. If not this story will be rule, with those falling away from spiritual starvation, and to our own condemnation.

Yes, some converts may actually embrace some pietistic customs that many have ignored for so long. Maybe because it reminds us also what we should be doing in our lives. Tempered with proper nurturing, extremism or "convertitis" can be averted, and yes you also may learn and grow by also nurturing those that are new to the faith. Who knows, we may actually nurture ourselves.

I also want to remind all, we are all converts. No one is born into the faith, but are born as Christians by Baptism and Chrismation. Whether that happens as a physical infant or not is in God's providence. While the story may be amusing, it is also a sad story of those that embraced the faith and spiritually starved to death.

Just some thoughts on the issue.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ (a convert)

Amen, Father Anthony!

I remember a poster from a few years ago who commented on the fact that certain converts begin to adapt many of the accompanying ethnic habits of the churches they join, including beginning to wear black or "ethnic" clothing, let their hair grow out (I even know someone who took on an ethnic accent, but that is another story!) and this individual commented that this was not conversion but Halloween! Your post demonstrates how facile sometimes our reasons for joining a church can be. But often God accomodates Himself to our weaknesses, so the things that draw us in, while ultimatey of moderate value, have the effect of helping get to the right place...the will of God for our lives!

In Christ,

Gordo

What Fr Anthony says is true. The only place that one can learn to become Orthodox or Catholic is in Church. The trouble is, in our electronic age, many are attempting to self teach. I teach an Adult education class. I wish that I had a quarter for every time someone has asked me questions about the Philokalia, or the Ladder of Divine Ascent. I almost wish at times that these books had never been translated. One has to understand basic Catechism before one can even begin to comprehend such works. I frequently have to pound in that ALL is to be found in the Divine Services. One can learn the full Theology of the Church merely by attending all the Divine Services. Listen to what is being read. Compare from day to day, week to week and you will see how the DIvine Services are the living, breathing embodiment of the Church. All the books and videos and whatnot can not teach one what it is to be Orthodox. The only way to learn the faith is to live it, not read about it.
The other area where I have noticed confusion is the concept that the "monastic way" is the ideal. There are 2 paths in Christianity, in the world, and out of the world. For some reason, those who have self educated themselves, often assume that the Monastic path is the higher one, and should be used by all. But one cannot be a monk and be in the world. Our beloved monastics have chosen the Angelic path, fraught with discomfort, deprivation, and self denial. The Rewards are great, and so is the price paid. Not all are called to this path. When I hear a call for more monastic services, I shiver. It is a Cross that not all can bear. Our Heavenly Father has appointed all of us with a path in life. We are called to serve Him each in our own way. And our efforts to find our own way often result in error, or even apostasy.
It is the responsibilty of the Priests to cherish, guard, teach and protect the sheep assigned to them. One cannot be recieved into the Church, and then abandoned to ones own devices. Spiritual growth requires nurturing, care and feeding from the moment of birth to the passing of the soulf from the body. Anything less is derelict.

Does this make any sense?

Alexandr

As a side note, I remember my first day at seminary. Fr Luke made the rounds of each new seminarian's room and confiscated all copies of the Philokalia, Ladder of Divine Ascent, and the Pedalion, which of course every last one of us owned. They were not returned until each seminarian's spiritual father OK'd it. That in of itself taught me much.

Alexandr

That in itself speaks volumes. If we have not learned to pray and understand the basics of the faith and live it, how can you jump to the filet mignon of the faith?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I believe that Jewish rabbis also had a practice along these lines as far as stages to reveal certain aspects/interpretations or even passages of Sacred Scripture. We may desire meat, but we must first adjust ourselves to the milk of the kerygma before we can climb the heights of the Mount of Transfiguration!

Great story about the books in the seminary...

Gordo

This entire thread, and Alexandr's post in particular, resounds within me. I think there are plenty of people who have looked into the eastern rite churches (I have no experience with Orthodoxy in this regard and will not speak for it) who have found the opposite to be the case:

The only place that one can learn to become Eastern Catholic is on the Internet. The trouble is, in our Latinized age, we are required to self-teach.

If a person was genuinely drawn to the eastern practices, theology, spirituality, etc and found himself at a Latinized parish, what would you recommend he do? If he came here to learn more, would you tell him it was wrong? If he went there and found something very different than he was expecting, would you find him at fault, or would you blame the parish? If a convert, after years of attendance, questioned the public rosary recitation before liturgy, would you blame it on convertitis?

This does point out the importance of the church being true to the faith and traditions passed on to her so that those who visit can be properly taught. And there is a point one crosses which becomes almost comical as Alexandr described. As Father Anthony pointed out, the comical display comes from a shallowness of faith. What of the convert whose wishes come from a depth of faith? Is he forever relegated to the shadows, forbidden from speaking of such things, because he wasn't chrismated as an infant? There is a place and a need for the zeal of converts. It is afterall what spread our faith so far and wide. I doubt so many would have willingly died for their faith if they did not have such zeal for their beliefs. Perhaps if those born into the faith were not so complacent about their faith, they would not be offended by the convert's zeal.

In actuality, I think there is a medium, where some cradles fall to the left and some converts fall to the right, but they tend to temper each other and pull each other toward the middle. The problem is when the two extremes come together and there is no one in the middle who can find a common ground.

In my own experience, it was not the run of the mill differences which bothered or affected me. It was those in the extreme who were complacent or bored with their faith. It was those people who didn't seem to care. It wasn't that they had something different, but the impression I had was that they didn't know (much less appreciate) what they had at all. That really affected me--like a punch in the gut of my soul. Thankfully, I was not surrounded by them. By the sounds of many on this board, I can't help but believe that many others who walked in my shoes had much to grieve over when they found that the faith they had come to love was not to be found where it ought to have been. I know that many born into the faith here mourn those losses and have a zeal to bring back the church's sense of self and time-honored theology, spirituality, and traditions. Is their attempt comical? Is their attempt in vain?

For the sake of the Barsenuphius Theophylacts of the world, I hope not. Because if some more people in the church don't start showing some pride in their traditions, some zeal in their faith, some conviction in their beliefs, the church will die off and all her potential faithful will be ommm-ing in Tibet.

Amen!

Wondering - Well said!

~Isaac

I am sure that we all have our horror stories about "plus catholique que le papa" types, whether we are Eastern or Latin, it matters not (how Yoda of my syntax). I know of a fomer Fundamentalist turned (Latin) Catholic who had suceeded in making a horse's hiney of himself in the diocesan paper when he sang songs about the Latin Mass (it is a beautiful liturgy, but I am Eastern and like mine a bit better). he wrote a letter saying that Latin was the everyday language of the Vatican, when in wrote Father Roark, who had studied at the Vatican wrote back that it was Italian, NOT Latin that was the everyday language. this convert also let me know that I should be Latin if I wanted to be Catholic :rolleyes: . hello, I am a cradle Catholic who returned from a few years in Mormonism, and it would really tick off my father's sdie of the family if they heard this man telling me that I wasn't Catholic enough.oh, well, wadayagonado? at Seminary, I met ex Catholics who made fools of themselves when holding forth on Catholicism ,and telling cradle Baptists what THEY should be doing.
Much Love,
Jonn

It is very easy for converts who initially are "on fire" to experience discouragement when that enthusiasm wears thin. They need the patient support of the Church community as well as the ordained members.



Porter...prayerfully

Another well said, to you Wondering. Had it not been for the internet, and sites like this, I would never had known there was such a thing as an Eastern Catholic Church. And my sentiments fall right in line with the comments you made.

For me, it was the lofty, deeply mystical and spirtual writings that made a difference. Had I not started at the top of the mountain, I would never have understood or appricated the foundations. To me, conversion is personal. There is no right place to begin, as conversion is of Divine Providence in origin. If someone goes to the extream, be patient with them. Through continued support and God's grace, they will learn balance.

Boy!!!

This is "barking right up my tree!"

Answer number one...why do we converts go around telling others how to practice the very Faith they were born into?

Because.....in order to get over our abhorence of the Catholic or Orthodox Faith, we had to study our brains out. As we did, we found out what the official documents, catechisms, writings, etc. of the Church teach regarding the proper praxis of a believer.

And we don't see "cradles" doing it.

In fact, the behavior of many "cradles" was a source of scandal to us as Protestants -- scandal which kept us from really even considering the Church.

So when we convert, we want not only our lives to be as fully Catholic (or Orthodox) as we can be, we want others to "get in line with the program" also!

Of course, in the process of working this all out, we become a ROYAL PAIN IN THE TUCHAS to our chosen parish!!

I call it "convert fever" and I had a RIP SNORTIN' case of it up until about a year ago!! May God bless all those kind people at St. Ann's who put up with me -- especially those who took me aside and gently offered "course correction."

One thing that you have to understand about Protestantism -- especially certain brands of it -- is that they are really, really big on pietist outward show. Pastors will actually call people to certain kinds of behavior (don't drink alkeehol, don't gamble, don't go to movies, etc.) so that you can be holy.

And since we trust our leaders, we believe that the holiness is in the doing. And while this is not altogher wrong, outward shows of piety, especially in front of other Christians, easily takes place of the real holiness of "being small"...the private prayer corner, the unknown fastings, the anonymous acts of kindness and charity.

As for the issue of being an Irishman in an Eastern European parish....no, I don't try to be something I obviously am not. It took some time for me to become comfortable with the Liturgy because it was so different. But I try to appreciate the beauty that is in the East without compromising my Irishness nor acting like I have to learn Ukrainian or Old Church Slavonic and dress like a Slav peasant!

I actually miss the Anglican form of worship I grew up with, but there is beauty here that I can appreciate without having to go bonkers about it.

And now that I am calmed down considerably (big sigh of relief from the parish faithful!) I am finding the the real work of holiness and growth in the Christian Faith is not only hard work -- it is something I know precious little about.

Pray for me -- a convert -- that now God will lead me away from the superficialities which have been my spiritual life, and draw me to a real spirituality which is both pleasing to Him and certainly less taxing on the parish I belong to!

Brother Ed (we really don't MEAN to be annoying!)

Dear Brother Ed,

GREAT post!

May God bless us, each and every one!
Bill

As far as the converts going overboard, especially the Orthodox ones, it might be a case of really wanting a tradition.

For instance, Christmas and Advent: what does the typical American have but Santa Claus (a horrible substitute for St. Nicholas;) vapid pop songs that are about anything but the Birth of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ; and shopping. Maybe the convert is embracing every little ethinic custom to claim a tradition that was lacking in his/her past.

I feel that way, that's what got me interested in the East. Tolstoy's Where Love Is, God Is was what got me wanting to give my new family a more traditional Christmas and Advent. Now, I'm not going to serve 12 dishes on Christmas Eve, yet. But I think that most Americans are yearning for a connection... to the past, to our ancestors, to something. I think we should try to understand why converts do what they do. In fact, we should ask them why they are doing that ultra-zealous thing they are doing. It will get us to know them better and probably improve our spiritual lives.

And maybe we can add some sensibility to their practices before they go off the deep end.

yes, I know what you say, altar boy, I'm there with you, I am that pain in the duupa. And, yes, I studied much and found much that I found fascinating and real. That what I found is what Prot/Baptist/Fundamentals kinda left out. Hmmm, is it by ignorance, or design, or what...? The point of authority,... for Baptism, for serving the Eucharist, for it all, came into question. So, here I am. mik, ..oh, and , remember 9-1-1.!

My favourite characterization of the convert is the one where an Orthodox convert comes into Church with "prayer ropes dangling from his wrists."

For some people, just one is not enough!

But converts do bring zeal to parishes and inspire cradles to "do better."

A friend who became Orthodox would make the Sign of the Cross over everything, especially ever morsel of food he would put into his mouth . . .

We were in a coffee shop and a Polish lady shouted out loud, "Vat a vanderfool boy you var!"

She shouted this every time he made the Sign of the Cross over something.

As we drove off, he crossed himself in the car and as I looked around to see why . . . he quietly said, "Do you see that hill over there?"

"There is a cemetery behind it . . ."

"An Orthodox cemetery?" I asked . . .

I never got the answer to that one.

God bless you converts, every one!

Just be careful with all those prayer ropes on your wrists . . . make sure they're not too, too long . . .

Alex

Great story Alex!

Love in Christ,
Alice

I really think some are missing the point here. This is not a place for stories about converts but instead how to bring about healthy spiritual conversions instead of these people that think by embracing the externals they are embracing a faith. We all have plenty of tories of converts, but what are you doing to help foster a healthy conversion for that person, that they do not have to look for externals to make people believe they have embraced a faith?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Bless, Father Anthony,

Well, if you have a convert story as good as Alice says mine is, I'm listening!

That person I related about used all those "externals" to demarcate some real spiritual space for himself.

It was easy for me as a CEC (Cradle Eastern Catholic) to look with a critical eye at all those "externals."

Yet, I now know that that is how he began his early Orthodox spiritual journey.

For him, conversion meant a complete conversion.

He was truly "putting on Christ" and rejecting the spirit of the world and worse.

He wanted to shout his Orthodox faith from the rooftops.

He is now an OCA priest and when I met him for lunch the other day, he came to the legislature in his black flowing priestly robe, silver neck cross - and yes, his prayer rope.

Although he only had one this time . . .

Externals are important since they are tools of witness and can really express one's state of conversion, faith commitment, in this day and age of indifference.

As he walked down the halls, people stopped to greet him, RC's kissed his hand as he blessed them with the Sign of the Cross etc.

Externals to be sure.

But that convert taught this cradle (and I'm sure many others by now) what real witnessing to Christ in today's world is all about.

That convert doesn't need to hear anything from sinful little me about improving his spiritual life.

And his bishop personally thanked me for "bringing him to Orthodoxy, to us."

My jaw dropped as I said, "Vladyko, I just came along for lunch at that coffee shop!"

Kissing your right hand, I again invoke your blessing,

Alex

Dear Alice,

Thank you, dear friend!

Stories (and cats) are what really make life worth living, don't you think?

Alex

It might seem strange and counter-intuitive, but I've always felt more comfortable in an environment and among people that would be considered "cradle". When we were in a convert heavy parish I felt like something of a white crow.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Right you are!

Why is it that so many converts pay attention to the "letter of the law?"

Not that that's a bad thing to follow the canons.

Alex

How is one who reads the law to know which situations are of greater importance or lesser importance? If it is a suggestion, then why phrase it as a law?

This goes back to the need for the church to be involved in an inquirer's conversion, as the seeker does not have the history and tradition of the church behind him in order to figure it all out for himself. Otherwise, it is no better than the Protestant version of every man being his own pope, but with a few more sources to pull from thrown in.

Some do, some don't. My issues were a little different though.

Andrew

I would feel honored to have someone like you in my parish...

Your 'cradle' friend,
Alice

Awwww shucks. Thanks.

Your "xenos" friend.

Andrew

On the "letter of the law"....

As a Prottie, I had done some fasting, especially in times of spiritual duress. However, I had no real praxis of fasting as the East does.

When I entered the Church, I immediately began the Friday fast. My wife, who was not at all interested in her nutcake husband's newest theological hobby, could have cared less. I was served meat on Friday more than once, which I tried to delicatedly eat around without notice.

I finally posted a sign on the range hood above the stove.

NO MEAT ON WEDNESDAYS AND FRIDAYS.

That, my friends is the "letter of the law", which is all converts understand in their haste to practice the Faith as truly as possible.

A while later, after discussions with my wise god-mother in the Faith, I suddenly came to realize that I was violating the "spirit of the law" -- which is LOVE!!!

My wife worked hard to make a nice meal. My declining it, even if done in a proper theological construct, woundeed her and made her even more distrustful of the Faith (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!).

"Offer it up to God and eat your dinner," was my god-mother's wise advice. "Love is more important. He knows the intent and desires of your heart."

What I understand now that I didn't understand as a newbie to the Faith was that the Law of Love supercedes the Law of Canon in matters such as this.

(Obviously there is a line which cannot be crossed, such as skipping Liturgy, which is a no-no)

As converts, we want to be obedient. That is what we were taught at Protties. But sometimes -- often, in fact -- we miss the greater law of love for others.

And this goes not only for our relationships within the family, but more especially in ouir discussions with those outside the Faith. I have both seen and participated in (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!) conversations which were exhibitions of pride, self-centeredness, and the fine art of ad hominum attacks, rather than a display of the love of Christ for others.

Have patience with us converts. With your guidance, we can turn into good Catholics and good people in the parish we are in without losing all of that zeal we had upon entering. It just needs a good tempering.

Brother Ed

I would have to agree with Altar Boy. Converting to the Church is an emotionally, spiritually, and mentally a challenging/uplifting/exhausting journey, all at once. I also probably came across as a know-it-all.

I will admit to being tempted by fanaticism and outward things that aren't necessarily important. I sported the hippie-monk look for some time until I realized all that hair was a source of pride. I try to keep myself in check now.

It is frustrating to come home to the Church, and to see so much laxity among people who have had the privilege of being raised in the Church from childhood, and have not had to "find" it the way converts had to. Eventually one must learn to focus on the liturgy when at church (not on people), and on one's own spiritual life instead of what heresies are harboring in the souls of fellow church members or of Bishop So And So.

I can imagine that converts are frustrating at times. But cradlers can be equally frustrating to converts, especially the super-ethnic old timer who looks at you like you have no right being in that church in the first place.

Finally, one point that the writer of the mentioned article fails to mention is this: Zealous converts don't do half as much nagging and dictating to the faithful what they should believe as the liberals, feminists, and pro-this and that'ers do.

Just sharing my thoughts, which are worth little, hoping to offend no one.

I have never had ANY problems from "cradle" Orthodox in the Church. Actually, my first greeting from a babushka was a big kiss, three times of course on my cheeks! Nothing but great love which seems to swell up from the Ukrainian and Russian soul!

The Cradles love the converts and the converts love the cradles in my experience. We couldn't get along without each other.

CDL

Dear Professor Dan,

You obviously don't attend the parishes I know up here!

But it is great that your parish is like that!

Alex

Yuuun huh!!!

We have a name for converts at St. Ann's.

BOAT PEOPLE!!!

I was informed of this from one of my fellow converts in the catecheumen's class. He was standing in the nathex and happened to overhear two of the ethnic "old timers" refer to us converts as such.

LOL!!

Brother Ed -- dripping wet from my boat ride!

My fiancee and I attend a Ruthenian parish. She is a cradle Roman Catholic. I was raised in an evangelical household (mother's family Southern Baptist, father's family Pentecostal). In my early thirties, while in seminary, I ended up in the Episcopal Church. Then, because of concerns over recent developments in the Episcopal Church, I became Orthodox (OCA). Everyone was friendly and welcoming. At the Ruthenian Church, we have encountered some hostility, but people have been very gracious for the most part. As far as the hostility goes, some came from cradle Eastern Catholics, some from converts. Fortunately, the graciousness of most of the people (cradle Eastern Catholics and converts alike) has outweighed the hostility of a few.

I think really cradles and converts have qualitites that should complement one another. Cradles the confidence of the faith they have preserved, and converts enthusiasm of the faith they have found. When either of these go to extremes, you will have problems. When met in balance, I think you can have something truly wonderful.

Andrew

The people in the Melkite and Antiochian churches tend to refer to the new Middle Eastern immigrants as FOBs (Fresh off the Boat). Now, they are cradle Christians.


Then there are the reverts, who are baptized and chrismated as infants but fall away from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in search of greener pastures only to repent like the prodigal and come home again.

One Greek Orthodox Priest said that we are all converts because there was a time when we were all unbaptized and unchrismated.

Furthermore, we all had to undergo a time of catechesis whether as children or adults.


It is too bad that we label people.

I converted (or reverted?) to the Catholic church this year after three years of non-denomenational Protestantism (a mouthful, I know). So, as a fired up convert, I really appreciate all of your posts! Though, I hardly think I'm a nuisance to cradle Catholics.. :rolleyes:

Furthermore I am drawn to the Eastern Traditions, not because I think that the Latin Rite is deficient (not in the LEAST!) but because of what I think might be the result of my being baptized and having spent time in my childhood in the Greek Orthodox Church.

I hope to learn more of Eastern Christian traditions here.

Pax vobiscum,

Welcome!