One of the distinct differences of a bulletin board vs email list is the ability to view the thread 'all at once'. With email unless you seperately archive the emails form the list it is harder to follow a particular thread.

I have been on the 'Prostopinije' list for several years and have archived most of the posts. The list currently has 119 members. a similar list though more tchnical in nature is 'Podoben' which has 129 members. Both groups require membership approval which helps keep spam out as well as allow candid communication.

I don't think a forum would be a competitor to prostopinije, particularly if there are those who aren't comfortable with email lists as a menas of sharing information.

just my humble $.00002 opinion

Steve

It's worth noting that the Cantor's Institute website now has its own archive as well. That makes it less (or even un) necessary for recipients of the prostopinije mailing group to archive some, if not all, of the materials they recieve after use.

Jim,

I meant that I archived the emails that go back n forth, too. Though Yahoogroups also archives the Podoben and Prostopinije emails as well.
I save the music PDFs on my local drive for faster access and printing as I refer to the material fairly often.


MANY MANY thanks to Jeff Mierzejewski for the online archive!

Steve

This post is let everyone know that I am still investigating the possibility of a cantors’ forum. Over the last few days I have been discussing a possible cantors’ forum with several people in the Church. These are the questions I’m thinking about:

Issue 1: Are there enough interested people to justify a cantors’ forum?

Unknown. It has always been my hope that threads about chanting the Liturgy would become numerous enough so that creating a separate forum for them would seem a very natural thing to do. This hasn’t happened yet.

I am not adverse to creating a dedicated forum and see what happens. If we wound up with just one thread in the first month I could easily abolish the forum and move that thread to another forum. This is still something I am thinking about. I encourage your input.

Issue 2: Should such a dedicated forum be open to all members or restricted to functioning cantors?

“The Deacon’s Door” forum was created to offer a quiet place for deacons and their wives and deacon candidates and their wives to discuss issues pertaining to that particular ministry. It is a private forum because those originally interested in participating there were looking for a place to discuss things that would be free from lots of questions by those not sharing in that ministry. Such questions are, of course, always welcome in the public forums.

A cantors’ forums is going to be different. The Deacon’s Door forum has membership restrictions. I have official lists of deacons and deacon candidates for the Byzantine - Ruthenian Church to refer to whenever anyone asks for admission. For other Eastern Catholic deacons and deacon candidates (and/or their wives) I can send an e-mail to their pastor to verify their status. But there is no official list of cantors for any of the Byzantine Catholic Churches. Most parishes welcome all who are interested to serve as cantors. Thus it is almost impossible to place any restrictions on membership. [Like the Prostopinije List, such a dedicated forum would have to be open to anyone who wishes to be part of it. The restrictions are on the topic, not on those who are allowed to be involved.]

Issue 3: Is this a better format than an e-list (such as the Prostopinije List)?

I have no desire to compete with that excellent list. What do cantors think about this? Only a few have provide their thoughts so far.

Issue 4: Personal Agendas

As a cantor for over 25 years I have learned that there are a number of valid ways to set the tones. The one thing that I disagree with is the mandate of any particular setting, beyond those of the Divine Liturgy that have been in common use over the past 40 years. It has always been my stated preference that everyone put their gifts on the table and that whatever is still being used in 30 years is what the Lord wants.

Some cantors wish to simply prostopinije beyond recognition. Others wish to simply erase the Slavonic text and fit the English text without any adjustment of the notes. Can these two groups co-exist in a single forum? [I am in the middle here. I see a need to set music to properly accent American English. Liturgical music must always be subservient to the Gospel. If our received chant were detrimental to the proclamation of the Gospel I’d recommend finding new chant. Luckily we Ruthenians have a chant that is possibly the most adaptable for use in the Christian West.]

Are there other issues? I’d appreciate a thorough discussion of these (and any other) issues before making any decisions.

Thanks!

Admin

A 'Cantor's Corner' could be a useful addition to Byz. Forum. I hope it will be possible to move beyond the dichotomy between oversimplified chant on one hand and English text inserted without regard to the fit of the accents on the other, but perhaps this topic needs to be aired. Also a 'Cantor's Corner' might help the cantors to achieve some solidarity in stating their concerns, which certainly need more than a shoulder to cry on.

Meanwhile, the Prostopinije list is currently rather underused as a resource; several of the contributers to this thread I don't recall as participants in the list. Jeff M. has taken pains to make it available, so let's make use of it.

I am aware of some potential controversies that might arise in a cantor's corner; it would be necessary, I think, to insist that discussions on some points avoid dealing in personalities and stick to specific points of controversy discussed in as factual a manner as possible. It will do little good to give vent to grievances, however justified they might be, but it might do some good to discuss how the chant is best sung with English texts.

Stephen

One of the difficulties with open access is that everyone can offer their opinion, whether it is relevant or not to the discussion at hand. Getting off topic happens on the Forum often.

There are certain types of expertise necessary for a cantor to be effective, but like it or not, not all parishioners are in a position to offer relevant criticism or advice, though they may think otherwise. Everybody's a critic, so they say.

Perhaps a cantor could designate him/herself as such in their forum profile in order to have access?

An open forum can also dampen discussion of difficult topics. I suspect an open forum will not be used so much, as few cantors will want to discuss potentially controversial topics there. But, it could be helpful for bringing inexperienced cantors up to speed on resources, etc.

Back to private emails and phone calls for now

My two shekels worth on the issues raised by the Administrator.

Issue One: Numbers
"Critical Mass" is a worthwhile consideration, however this is one advantage of the Discussion Board Format over the e-mail distribution list format. I discovered the "Holy Week Reforms" thread a full year after it was initiated, but I was still able to follow it in its entirety. Fewer, more substantive posts that reflected time given to thought and discernment would in my mind be a plus.

Issue Two: Open or closed?
I vote yes! What I mean is that the forum should be limited to those who are willing to give a self-description of their interest in the Forum, but that whoever Adminsters the Forum would take their self-representation at face value and would not need to verify it with any other authority.
I suspect the creation and maintenance of an un-offical "Contact List" of folks interested in Cantoring issues could be of service in and of itself.

Issue Three" Format
I have gradually come to think that there are distinct advantages to the Discussion Board/Forum format that probably warrant a new Forum.

Agendas, Personal and Shared
The Administrator's observations about personal agendas are well founded in experience, yet even here I think the careful articulation and discussion of what are often hidden [or unreflective] agendas could be a service.

I can think of several issues that I hope would provide a common interest base for discussion:

1. Typika Issues What services should be held when, how should they be celebrated, according to whom?

2. Text Issues What texts are being used for services? Why? What are the relative strengths and weaknesses of existing texts? What are desiderata for the future?

3. Music Issues What musical melodies are being used, where does they come from, how effective are they, what criteria do we use to judge such effectiveness ...

4. "Ministry" Issues What is the role of the cantor in our parishes and eparchies, What would we like it to be, how can we get from here to there ... How does this ministry influence our spiritual lives, our family lives, ...? What could and should be done to foster this ministry in our communities?

That is probably four shekels worth, so I'll stop!

The forum might be interesting and useful, but please don't call it "The Cantor's Corner." It sounds like a corner store.

Isn't there some technical term for the cantor stand? You know, the spinny thing that one puts all the books on? Have patience with me--I've only been cantoring in Byzantium since 1996. I don't know all the terms yet.

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Please keep the feedback coming (either here in this thread, via PM or via e-mail).

The cantor’s stand is generally called the “Krilos”.

Will this virtual kliros be open to all chanting traditions?

Andrij, a cantor
(who will not be offended if the proposed forum is limited to those using prostopinije)


Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον ηµάς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

I think it would be a good thing. We have many "official" cantors on the Byzantine Forum as well as others who are intersested in Prostopinije and other liturgical singing. At least in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia, most parishioners and cantors do not have a say in newly-created versions of "Prostopinije" and
many feel left out of the process. If a "Cantor's Corner" is created, it would enable "everyone" to give their input on the subject of liturgical singing.

Ung-Certez

A Typikon type question:

What is the proper format for Weekday Liturgies during the Paschal Season?

Apparently Bright Week uses the same format as the Paschal Liturgy all week.

After Thomas Sunday, do we return to the "Weekday Antiphons"? Are the Prokeimena and Alleluias taken from the Oktoechos? Should the Resurrection Troparion and Kontakion be added to the daily propers?

How many of us "official" and unofficial cantors had any say into the existing english translations and music settings, aside from the insert work of cantor john Vernoski? I know I didn't, but I do appreciate the work.
"newly created versions" of prostopinije? The texts are approved by the IELC and the music is the same melodies that our ancestors sang in Slavonic. Once you can get past that hurdle the concepts make sense and it is singable!

Steve,
"unofficial" cantor

Phil,

Several years ago Bishop George (Van Nuys) sent out instructions for the weekday and Sunday Liturgical formats for the Paschal season. I will try to locate it and post the pertinant info.

Steve

The Virtual Krilos will be open to all Eastern Christian chant traditions. (Maybe you just gave us a name? )

If created, a cantors’ forum would be strictly unofficial.

For participants from the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church the focus would be mostly on the “how do I?” of chanting the Divine Services. Sharing of texts and musical settings would also be appropriate. Such a forum should not be seen as a vehicle to provide input to the Liturgical Music Commission that the bishops have created to produce official settings. Those with suggestions along those lines should contact the appropriate authority within their local eparchy to see if input is welcome and, if so, how to submit their suggestions.

--

One thought on membership to a restricted forum. We don’t want to undertake a task of verifying that people who say they are cantors are actually active cantors in their parishes. But we could either 1) ask them to sign their real name to each post or 2) keep a running list of members and make it available within the forum (either as a sticky that stays at the top of the forum or on a separate page that is linked from the top of that forum). Such a list would contain real name, hometown, and parish.


It has been the custom among Carpatho-Ruthenians to sing the Paschal Antiphons (“Shout joyfully….”) for the entire 40 days of Pascha. Other traditional customs included singing “Christ is risen….” for all 40 days in place of “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord….”, “We have seen the true light….”, “May our lips be filled…”, “Blessed be the Name of the Lord….” and the “Glory be” of the dismissal. This makes sense because most people no longer have the opportunity to participate in the Divine Liturgy everyday during Bright Week and singing them just on Pascha Day was not enough after 40 days of the Fast. Unfortunately this custom is now prohibited by some Ruthenian bishops. Of course, “The Angel exclaimed” and the Paschal Communion Hymn are always sung in their appropriate places.

Regarding the Troparia and Kontakia the usual custom is to first sing the Troparia and Prokimny of the previous Sunday followed by those of the Saint of the day. In practice this varies. I am unaware of any survey to tell us exactly what parishes are doing here but many cantors I know sing the troparia from the previous Sunday and then add only the troparion of the Saint(s) of the day (skipping the kontakia of the Saint(s) of the day) and then close with the “Glory…now and ever…” and “Although you descended…. (the Kontakion of Pascha). They also usually sing only one Prokimenon (either that of the Sunday or that of the day).

BTW, I have often suggested to new cantors who chant daily Liturgies to sing only the troparia from the previous Sunday, even if outside Pascha. This allows them to get used to the mechanics of singing troparia and to learn the Eight Tones (texts and music). Once they are familiar with the Eight Tones I then suggest they start adding the troparion of the saint of the day, etc., as it works for them.