How many parishes in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia actualy have Cantors who earn stipends for their services rendered, attend The MCI, (etc.)? Something tells me that such Cantors in the Ruthenian Metropolia are few and in the minority.

I wanted to execute this question as a poll, but polls are disabled on The Kliros Forum.

Ungcsertezs

I personally know of two cantors who regularly receive stipends including Sunday Divine Liturgy. I am not one of them. I have received stipends on a purely voluntary basis for weddings, baptisms and funerals for which I was the cantor. I've never received any stipend for Sunday liturgies though.

Steve Petach
Cantor,
Cathedral of St Mary, Van Nuys

My experience is the same as Steve's, but with the addition of reimbursement for some materials and MCI expenses by the parish for ongoing parish use.

Jim Sprinkle, Cantor
St. Thomas the Apostle BC Church,
Gilbert AZ

My experience is the same as Steve's (lead cantor receives a stipend of some sort, which sometimes is passed on to me when I cover a funeral, Presanctified Liturgy, etc. Also, I pay to attend the MCI, and our parish is small enough that I haven't asked for reimbursement). With an 8-hour drive to Pittsburgh, we don't have many other cantors going, but I might try to arrange some car-pooling from the Binghamtown-Scranton area with fall.

Jeff Mierzejewski
Cantor, Ss. Peter and Paul Byzantine Catholic Church
Endicott, NY

Our parish has had a long history of paying stipends to the primary cantors for services. This has traditionally been two or three people at any given time.

Currently we use the official system and checks are received by mail directly from the chancery office every two months.

The parish also supports education for catechists and other volunteers. Registration for official events is paid by the parish. So far I have paid my own way at the metropolitan cantors institute, but I have no doubt that this would be reimbursed if I asked for it.

When I was growing up in the Manville NJ parish we provided a house for the cantor too. Now he was full time and a real "professor" (graduate of the Uzhorod school).

Steve Puluka
Cantor, Holy Ghost Church Mckees Rocks, PA

Like Steve, the parish where I grew up had a tradition of providing housing for the Cantor - I can remember the house which was adjacent to the Rectory, and those more mature than I remember when the Cantor lived there. "Pro" (the Professor) also assisted with the Catechism classes and directed a choir.

This is the same parish I am now privileged to Cantor in. It is now a mission parish, served for the last 3-4 years by Jesuit priests associated with the University of Scranton and Administered by the Pastor of another parish less than 2 miles away.

I was "recruited" by lay members of the parish to sing when the previous cantor could no longer continue. I served for about 16 months with no compensation. Eventually two parish organizations found out I was not being payed (they all assumed I was since it was the parish norm) and for several months I received a stipend from the organizations.

In time, someone mentioned the situation to the Parish Administrator, and since then I have received a monthly stipend.

Here in the Anthracite region there is a strong tradition of Cantors being paid. I believe it is still the norm, but honestly do not know.

Phil Yevics St. John the Baptist, Ruthenian

Steve,

You cantor at Holy Ghost, but the Archeparchial Chancery pays your salary, or pays your cost for the MCI?

My question is how many paid (by their respective
parishes) cantors exist in the Ruthenian Metropolitan Archeparchial Church (including Passaic, Parma and Van Nuys)? Of those "paid" cantors, how many attend the MCI each year?

Ungcsertezs

Sorry for the confusion, I'll try to be clearer.

The Church pays the stipend from their account, but checks are issued by the chancery. I understand this is the new centralized system for Pittsburgh.

I pay for my attendance at the cantors institute, but I mention that my parish would pay for this too if I asked them. My point is the support would be there if needed.

Thus, Holy Ghost in Mckees Rocks pays our primary cantors. Only one of the current three cantors attend the MCI.

Steve Puluka
Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA

You may add me to the list of cantors who aren't paid by their parish and who do pay their own way for M.C.I. classes. Expenses for travel are way too expensive to ask for reimbursment in my case. Registration isn't expensive though. Since the Pittsburgh M.C.I. was originally planned around local attendance, I kind of threw a wrench into the works by being a long distance commuter. Most of the M.C.I students are volunteer cantors.

My parish currently has three 'regular' cantors, none of us are regularly paid for Sunday Liturgies. Any stipends earned, from Funerals, Weddings, Baptisms etc are irregular and variable.

It does seem that the number of regular stipend paid (regular Sunday Liturgy) cantors is few. In some ways there is an advantage to being a true volunteer cantor: if you mess up or make big mistakes there isn't money or title at stake.

Though I am a volunteer, I do treat the work and duties of the cantor quite seriously.

Steve Petach
Cantor, Cathedral of St Mary, Van Nuys, CA

Well that's a real shame if only .05-.10% of cantors in the Ruthenian Metropolitan Byzantine Catholic Church are paid for their vocation. Just shows where our priorities are these days.

Ungcsertezs (who's home parish reads 1/4 of the liturgy because our 88 yr. Cantorka has stepped down due to illness and their is no one to step up.)

I think that our priorities probably start at survival, then work outward. A day may come when we have paid cantors, but other concerns, like the shortage of priests loom larger. Shifting demographics also may play a role. The Ruthenians are much smaller than, say, the OCA, though larger than ACROD, and have resource constraints accordingly. (Just thinking out loud, trying to keep the matter in perspective.)

Ung -

I'm not sure where you're getting the .05-.10% that you bemoan. Based on just the response here, we have at least seven stipended cantors (from all over the country); your figures would mean that we have between 7,000 and 14,000 cantors in the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh...

Yours in Christ,

Jeff Mierzejewski

Well, was that a question on the Archeparchial survey? If it wasn't, it should have been. I would hypothesize that there are far more unpaid cantors than paid. How many "attendees" at the MCI are paid cantors, what percentage??

Ungcsertezs

Having been an attendee of the M.C.I classes for the past five years, I don't recall there having been a poll, informal or otherwise, as to the paid/nonpaid status of class participants. I only learned of cantor Steve Puluka's stipend arrangement here on this very forum. It seems we cantors are rather quiet about such matters as there is considerable variability in the matter of stipends from parish to parish.

For the most part, I would hazard a guess that most all cantors do it for a love of the church and the liturgy rather than for the stipend. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind a regular stipend for Sunday Liturgy. I know that in my parish there are several factors that would prevent such from occuring naturally (ie without mandate from the Bishop or Priest).

Ungcertez, you mention that the cantor in your parish is retiring, have you considered being a cantor? The M.C.I is local for you, not expensive (only $50/yr registration). If not, find parishioners who have the desire and support them (in various ways) as a way of keeping the cantor tradition alive. (This is true for EVERY parish in the Metropolia!)

Steve Petach
Cantor, Cathedral of St Mary, Van Nuys, CA

When I'm home visting, I sing and read. When I'm in Pittsburgh, I attend several parishes and also sing. Don't go to MCI, not a fan. Grew up with Slavonic, adjusted to Levkulic settings in English. Will sing where ever I go. Don't like when several parts are read. Don't tell me there are not parishes in the Ruthenian Archeparchy that don't recite the "Creed" because I witness this almost every week.

Ungcsertezs :rolleyes:

So, Ung-certez - do you serve your parish as a cantor, or not?

(Perhaps you would serve the Church better if you learned whatever you still need to learn to be a cantor, and volunteer to attend and help lead the singing at one parish regularly.)

Yours in Christ,
Jeff mierzejewski

Ungcertez,

I won't say there are parishes that don't recite the creed or other parts of the liturgy. I have attended liturgies in PA that were entirely spoken! :rolleyes: Except for the fact I was visiting, I desperately wanted to sing except that the priest ALSO spoke rather than chanted.

I too grew up with Slavonic and later, English liturgies (Levkulic settings and various choir arrangements). Initially, I had reservations with the M.C.I program, particularly being a very long distance student. Over time I grew to understand the mission. The best part of the MCI program has been the focus on liturgics and on the "being" of a cantor rather than just rote memorization of new material. One does not need to be a fan of the M.C.I. to appreciate it's benefits. (I know of some participants who have disagreements, but they keep coming back, so there must be something beneficial for them).

I sense that you are deeply concerned with the situation at your parish. My suggestion, to put it plainly, -step up- you may be the next cantor.

The first time I lead our congregation in Sunday Divine Liturgy, people could hardly hear me. I was a nervous wreck! After 5 years of chanting liturgies, baptisms, funerals, akathists, molebens, vespers I worry not about doing things perfectly, but about chanting prayerfully. I still make mistakes, sometimes big really noticeable ones.

I have visited many parishes literally from coast to coast. In all but very few has there been NO ONE to lead the congregation in chant. Some parishes have cantors with great voices, some with marginal voices, but they always try to chant. Almost all are volunteer (unpaid) cantors.

Steve Petach

P.S.
If I might ask, which parish do you attend?

I do step in and sing. We use Levkulic settings along with English Prostopinije music arranged by Mr. Jumba. It has served us well and do not see a need for other new settings.


Ungcsertezs

But we should be very wary of "survival mode". Quite often we get into survival mode, then get comfortable with it. We survive with bare minimums, then eventually get used to it. People then develope the attitude "we've done OK with (_____), why do we need to change?".

Just a thought...

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

At this point in time, many "elderly" parishes in the Ruthenian Archeparchy are beyond the survival mode, which would be "X" amount of time away from closings and mergers. With no cantors and the institution of new musical settings and different texts, people who are left in the pews just won't sing and the end result will be "recited" liturgies. It's only a matter of time.

Ungcsertezs

If it is only a matter of time before no one sings, then there is no need to know how many paid cantors we have. Seriously, change is coming to the music for a reason, not just because one or two people want it to happen. Settings were watered down from the original chants, and so, were less faithful to the oral traditions of the church than the new stuff is. The new stuff can restore much of what was lost.

It takes time for people to get used to new settings. They have been asked to do many things over the past few years that were the undoing of past errors, not just what they sing. Hopefully, patience will win out.

that would be a shame. at LatinMasses, hardly anyone sings, maybe they are illiterate and can't read the missalette. maybe the music stinks so bad that no one wants to waste their breath. anywhatever, I sing like a Protestant (and I did sing in a Presbyterian choir for a year, baritone, if you must know). St. Augustine said that when one sings, it is as if that personj pryed twice as much.
Much Love,
Jonn

that would be a shame. at Latin Masses, hardly anyone sings, maybe they are illiterate and can't read the missalet. maybe the music stinks so bad that no one wants to waste their breath. anywhatever, I sing like a Protestant (and I did sing in a Presbyterian choir for a year, baritone, if you must know). St. Augustine said that when one sings, it is as if that person prayed twice as much.
Much Love,
Jonn

UC:

While you may be comfortable with the grey book settings, that comfort didn't just happen, automatically. Adapting to those settings required work by people who taught it at your home parish, and by the small cohort there who first learned it. Fortunately there were people willing to do that work, rather than pointlessly objecting the new settings.

I have visited too many dwindling parishes (Central PA and Johnstown Deaneries) where only a few people sing other than the celebrating priests. No younger generation of laity around to step in and help sing. Some of these parishes will be closed. Those than remain open will be challenged to continue a cantorial tradition. While recited liturgies have been common in the Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Churches of PA, they were never a practice in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Churches. Without young cantors to take over, these remaining parishes will be reciting their services.

Ungcsertezs

Of course. How many folks still live in in old mining towns like Nanty Glo, South Fork, etc.? What fraction of the missing young people have simply moved away to find jobs? (If you look at the OCA website you will see churches in these parts that are priestless and doing only reader services.) The problem of dimnishing populations in these towns is a difficult one to solve.

The cantoring problem is easier. Folks in mid-life, who as youngsters received a tradition - passed to them by the work of others - need now to make the transformation from being receivers to becoming givers - to take up the work of maintaining and passing along that tradition.

In my own parish, most people sing as long as they are familiar with the words and music. Those who don't, have their own personal reasons for not doing so. Some have other issues in their lives that are manifested in stubbornly refusing to sing, others are not confident in their voices and need encouragement, still others are trying to manage their children and can't view the words at the same time. But, for the most part, everyone works at it, even when we have tried Slavonic. (The Slavonic takes longer to learn than the English, however.)

As far as I know, there are no parishes in this eparchy where people read the service instead of singing it even though we don't have paid cantors, but there is always room for improvement.

quote from Jim: "As far as I know, there are no parishes in this eparchy where people read the service instead of singing it"

Unless things have changed, if you go to St. Mary's Byzantine Church in Ambridge, PA they still say the responses. Also, they still had the podium on the Altar and the "reader" would come up and read the epistle and even use "The Word of The Lord" at its conclusion.

Again, if this has changed I do not know. I went to liturgy once down there over 7 years ago when I lived in Ambridge and never went back because of the "Greco-Roman Catholic" ceremonial Mass-Liturgy I experienced.

Um.....Arizona is in Van Nuys Eparchy not Pittsburgh according to the last map I checked.

I think Jim meant in the Eparchy of Van Nuys rather than the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

Steve

For those who love the Divine Liturgy in Old Slavonic, tune in on the internet every Sunday morning at 9:00am EST at
http://members.tripod.com/~stcyrils/

I've been away. Thanks, Steve, for your answer about Van Nuys.