Hello fellow members!
I am new to the forum and also a relatively recent convert to Catholicism, being chrysmated on the Feast of the Exaltation in September, 2001 at Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic church in San Diego. I just wanted to respond to a topic that has been discussed quite often and offer my dos centavos and I would welcome any comments. Since Holy Angels is the only Byzantine church I have been a member of my experiences so far are quite narrow as regards the Divine Liturgy.
1. As regards the prayers taken aloud by the
priest that has always been the case since
I have attended this church(starting 11
March, 2001.

2. We have never done the little litanies
between the antiphons if for no other
reason than our pew book does not have
them.

3. When I first joined the church we only sang
the first verse of all three antiphons, but
on September 1, 2002 our cantor decreed we
would sing all 3 verses of all 3 antiphons.
(We don't sing the third verse of the 3rd
antiphon because that is when the Little
Entrance procession stops at the ambon.
Maybe Father Mel can walk a little slower.)

4. The second "it is proper and just to
worship...." we have not, so far, shortened
to "it is proper and just".

5. In the pew book which we use for some
reason the communion hymn comes not after
the singing of "Holy things for the Holy',
but rather after the communion prayer. I am
not personally aware of a Byzantine church,
Catholic or Orthodox, which does it that
way.

Does the proposed shortening of the antiphons
include the special festal antiphons for major feasts, shuch as the Theophany? I might be upset at that.
byzcath convert,
Paul Heim

Welcome Paul!!!!!!!!!!

Holy Angels was my parish from 1988-2000 during the years of Father JOseph Ridella, Fr John Kovach and then Father Mel. I have many good memories of the people there especially the Rusnak's. Please say hello from me to El NOra and to Father Mel.

Af as the "Little LItanies" during the ANtiphons. I do remember these being taken for a short period in 2000 along with the prayers of the priest. Holy Angels seemed to be going towards restoration of it's Orthodox ethos.

Again, Welcome to the Forum

Brian in Sacramento

Welcome, Paul. In most parishes of the Byzantine Catholic metropolia only the first verse of each antiphon is taken, and hence the small ektenias at the conclusion of each antiphon are dropped because of the abbreviations.

In common Ukrainian Catholic usage, two complete antiphons (usually the first and third) are taken with the small ektenia in between, but in some parishes the Typical Psalms and Beatitudes are taken. The Beatitudes, especially if the appointed troparia especially for the Beatitudes are taken with them, give ample time not only for the Small Entrance but also for all of the faithful to approach and venerate the Holy Gospels.

I am glad to see your parish returning to full antiphons. The abbreviation of the antiphons has caused the aberration in most Byzantine Catholic parishes of the Small Entrance occurring during the Hymn of the Incarnation ("O Only Begotten Son") and not during the Third Antiphon as was the tradition, and which is still done in the Ukrainian Catholic usage.

When I was attending professional school in Pittsburgh in 1975, the Byzantine Catholic church I sometimes attended—Holy Spirit—had an English Divine Liturgy at 8:30 a.m. and a Slavonic Divine Liturgy at 10:30 a.m.

The interesting thing was that the priest took no shortcuts: the priest and choir sang the three ektenias with the full antiphons and almost everything else that the service books called for. Even more interesting was that the liturgical practice was identical to the OCA parishes I had attended earlier in my undergraduate years. In fact, they used the same music. The only noticeable difference was in the endings to prayers—“ now and ever and forever” vs. “now and . . . unto ages of ages.”

The Divine Liturgy was a beautiful and uplifting experience.

Years later, I met some Byzantine Catholics who talked about priests cutting some of these things.

Can anyone tell me when this cutting started and why? Maybe I'm off, but I always used “don't mess with success” as one of my yardsticks. And this particular parish seemed to have it right.

BOB

Dear BOB,

Those are interesting observations! If memory serves me the Ruthenian "pew book" from that time did not contain the little litanies (I think that is what you mean?, two not three) between the antiphons and it also did not contain a third antiphon except for feasts. And, did that BC parish sing Russian choral music for all liturgies? Or did you attend OCA parishes previously that had a prostopinije tradition. I'm sorry it is not clear to me from your post.

There is, today, two Holy Spirit and one Holy Ghost parishes in Pittsburgh, was it one of these that is still in existence?

Tony

Edited to correct number of parishes, was reversed.

There is no Byzantine Catholic parish in Pittsburgh that uses Great Russian chant. It was
probably a case were a few OCA parishes that had strong ties to their Carpatho-Rusyn heritage
and they used the Rusyn Prostopinije instead of the standard Moscovite music. There still exists certain OCA parishes even today in Western PA that make a habit of using Rusyn Prostopinije.

Ung-Certez

Tony:

The particular church was on Fifth Avenue in Oakland, near a large synagogue. They had no pew books around, but everyone seemed to know all the music and parts.

Ung Certez:

I believe you are right, too. The music was Carpatho-Russian in both cases. I have had experience with the music of the Great Russian tradition and it is different.

I had the chance to sing with a mixed Orthodox choir during the millenium celebrations in 1988 and the music sung at that time was of the latter tradition.

The priest in Pittsburgh at the time told me he had come from the tradition of married clergy but that he, himself, had had to remain unmarried because of the Ea Semper decree. Seems he had come from a long line of priests--father, grandfather, uncles, etc. And he said he was the last of his family. Seemed to me to be a shame. He was a good man and a solid priest.

Thanks for the posts.

But I still don't know what is the impetus for cutting. My Byzantine Catholic friend--met him at a retreat--told me his priest in the late 1980s cut everything between the end of the first antiphon to the Epistle in order to get things over in three quarters of an hour. So who's looking at their watch?

BOB

Randy,

I'm surprised when you mentioned the common Ukrainian usage is 2 antiphons. Hmm...I thought we should be using 3 antiphons plus troparion & kontakion (of the day) and using little litanies in between.

"...Ohh only begotton Son and Immortal Word of God..." is indeed part of the 2nd antiophon as oppose to the "third antiphon" that the Ruthenians consider it to be. (correct me if I'm wrong)

So we make Little Entrance after the 3rd Antiphon. And I think we make it during the Troparion (you know me being Deaf and it's hard for me to pay attention when I'm moving all over the place during that time getting ready for Little Entrance..yeah I'm an altar server, so not so sure if it's during 3rd Antiphon or Troparion).

I'm just curious as to what you respond to this and maybe you can enlighten me on few things which I may have misunderstood here.

I'm pleased that Father absolutely takes NO short cuts at our Divine Liturgy. He takes it to the fullness of the Liturgy.

We've used the Ruthenian style book since we started and Fr. didn't like it due to it's short cuts, so he recently added more antiphons, prayers, etc. in there plus he made up new "missal books" that also have Greek style. He's coming up with Russian and Ukrainian styles very soon, hopefully start using them during Great Lent. So now we have 4 styles: Ruthenian (with all the appropriate prayers..NO SHORT CUTS), Greek, Russian & Ukrainian. So it's very interesting.

The faithful now is standing more often and longer than usual. Except I was hoping we could eliminate kneeling after "Holy Holy Holy..." Kneel only after the elevation "...for these are for the holy" that's when I think is most appropriate time to kneel...and then rise up after he chants the song to the Theotokos "especially our all holy immaculate Lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary." (of course while Fr. is incensing the Holy Gifts then blesses the Holy Bread) "It is truly meet and bless the all holy Theotokos. More honorable than the Cherubim, more glorious than the Seraphim...etc." But it's a matter of time. (GRIN)

Not to put down kneeling which is good, but it's not of the authenic Byzantine tradition. Prostrating would be more appropriate especially during the Great Entrance at the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.

Of course kneeling is forbidden during Great Paschal Divine Liturgy and throughout 40 days Pascha-tide. I've had my priest tell people to stand up (some RC get hussy and fussy about it thinking we're so disrespectful. To us that's the contorary). (then again not to put RC down...we're trying to help them understand our traditions, and sometimes they refuse to accept it). But most of the time the RCs have been charitable in respecting our tradition and Byzantine ways. It's all about education and learning. Of course this forum is an excellent tool for all Christian to have a fruitful dialogue. I truly believe that it's through awareness, understanding and education it will bring closer towards Christian unity...without any uniformity.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Shane, the Hymn to the Incarnation (O Only Begotten Son) is not an antiphon, but a hymn that was added to the Second Antiphon.

This hymn is attributed to the emperor Justinian and probably dates from around 565 A.D. or so and affirms both the divinity and humanity of Christ. It was written in a time where there were schools of thought either doubting the humanity or the divinity of Christ.

My opinion is that this was not intended as a processional hymn but a sort of communal creed sung congregationally in praise of the Incarnation of Christ, both as God and man. Antiphons were already well in use, so I am not sure Justinian added this hymn solely for adding length to the second antiphon.

No Orthodox church I have visited, Carpatho- Russians included, has performed the Small Entrance during the Hymn to the Incarnation but rather during the Third Antiphon or Beatitudes as is the Ukrainian, Melkite and Russian Catholic practice.

The troparia at the Beatitudes are separate troparia and not the same as troparia and kondakia for that particular day which are sung after the Small Entrance before the Trisagion. The troparia at the Beatitudes are interspersed with the stanzas of the Beatitudes. Most Byzantine Catholics are not familiar with this practice.

And with regards to kneeling, you will have to ask my wife her tricks. She gets in the front row and stands for the Liturgy, she seems to have this Pied Piper knack of getting everyone to do what she is doing.

My Nebesnaja Manna (copyright 1941) has: 3 verses plus Glory be... of Antiphon 1; 3 verses of Antiphon 2 plus Monogenes; and 3 verses of Antiphon 3 with small litanties in between. A pew book for the consecration of Bishop Stephen (1956) has the same.

Pew books from Passaic and Pittsburgh (from the 1965 Byzantine Liturgial Conference) and a 1979 pew book adapted from these sources all have: 1 verse plus Glory be... of Antiphon 1; 1 verses of Antiphon 2 plus Monogenes; and 0 verses of Antiphon 3 with no small litanies in between. The 1979 version included in the text much of the silent prayers. I suppose the decision for abbreviation in this mode was made by the 1965 Byzantine Liturgial Conference.

Randy,

You are quite right about this Hymn of Incarnation. I only merely meant that it was "part of" the 2nd Antiphon...by the fact it was added by Emperor Justin. Yes, you are correct about the reasons for why it was added.

WOW. Your wife is just sneaky! Ha! I can tell couple of people at Holy Apostles Fellowship to be at the front pew or at least the 2nd pew. Ha. Yeah, we've got couple people who are as Orthodox as we are.

That's a good tip to help remind people to remain standing during Pascha.

Thanks for your help. BOY, there are a lot to learn!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

::cough cough:: Actually, it was written by Mor Severios the Patriarch of Antioch (whose feast, if I'm not mistaken, is coming up this Thursday, the day after the Fast of Nineveh) :p

Djs, yes I remember when we had the c.1979 Divine Liturgy book printed. Our pastor did a good job with it, I especially liked it because he included the priest's silent prayers which are now read out loud in most parishes of the Ruthenian Metropolia. It was implemented at a time when "liturgical economics" was practiced by many of our parishes. I still remember the "abridged liturgies" where we elimanted the Tropars and Kondaks and the Epistle was chanted at the altar by one of the altar boys while the congregation sang the trisagion hymn. Again, it was an interesting pew book at a time when the more progressive parishes with younger priests were starting to "de-Latinize" our liturgy. But if I remember correctly, Fr. Thomas always included in small print which parts were to be taken and which parts (in some parishes with Eparchial permission) could be omitted. I still use that book for reference.

Ung-Certez

Althouth the texts of Msgr. Levkulic (1978) include more text for the first and second antiphons, these are in smaller type font and no indication is made of the insertion of small ektenias in between.

In practice it seems at most Byzantine Catholic parishes of the Pittsburg Metropolia the rest of the verses of the antiphons are rarely taken except the first. The omission of the small ektenia texts may possibly also reflect not only a desire for abbreviation but the decline of the diaconate as the deacon takes the ektenias.

The 1978 Levkulic version also indicates the possibility of a third antiphon being taken but provides no other text or instructions.

The UGCC pew books (1988), to compare, have the full text of the First Antiphon with all of the verses in the same text font (bold) with the option of Psalm 102, the "Only Begotten Son", the small ektenia, and then the full Third Antiphon or option of the Beatitudes. The UGCC Liturgikon includes the text for the second antiphon (or option of Psalm 145) and the addition of another small ektenia.

But there are also many individual parish variations on these themes. There are some UGCC as well as some Byzantine-Ruthenian parishes that take all of the antiphons (or in the case of some UGCC parishes, all of the Typical Psalms and the Beatitudes) but these parishes are certainly in the minority.

Dear UC:

You are exactly right about the source of my 1979 pew book. It is a beautiful opus.

I am curious if anyone here has any connection to the 1965 Liturgical Conference or any idea of what, exaclty, was informing their decisions.

djs

PS UC: So delightful to see you post with a smile!