I am traveling to visit a friend in the Pittsburgh area in the coming weeks and when I will be there for the weekend I wanted to check out St. George in Aliquippa. I phoned another friend that I know who attends there and let them know that I would be coming out. I was really interested in attending Divine Liturgy there because as I heard and read here that it is somewhat of an oasis of Tradition when compared to other Greek Catholic churches in the region. For example (and keep in mind I have yet to attend so I am going on what I've been told) a full liturgy (with three verse antiphons) the podaj Hospodi, full processions, little litanies, no pre-cut particles, etc. Well, I was disappointed to learn that the above list is no longer what occurs there.

Let me explain what I've learned. It seems that the previous pastor ( or administrator), Fr. Elias, went back to Europe and was replaced by a new priest. In the month (or so) that the new priest has been there, the full processions are gone, little litanies gone, pre-cut particles now, 'sand boxes' gone (you know the candle stands with sand that we are to place candles in that are supposed to be in the front of our churches but seem to only exist in Orthodox churches).

Now let me repeat, I've not seen this first-hand, but rather the info was passed onto me.

So first and foremost: can anyone from St. George verify this info as to if it is all correct, partially correct, or if there is even more that has been changed.

Secondly, is this the method that will be implemented on the more Traditional churches when the New Liturgy is released?

Third, if this is true, where is the pastoral sensitivity that all of the revisionists cry about whenever returning to our Orthodox roots is presented here. This seems to be anything but pastoral sensitivity.

Before I comment too much more I would like verification if possible from those who attend St. George or those who are familiar with the situation.

I hope that what I heard is not so, but as of now I have to take it at face value.

Waiting for comments,

mc

I have a very similar story about a parish in Campbell, Ohio where the slightest "infraction" was the singing of a Roman Catholic Hymn at the end of Liturgy instead of "God Grant You Many Years." It didn't even "feel" like I had been in a Byzantine Church!

If what you say is true MC, shame, shame on the Archbishop for not being the "heavy" with this priest. Where is the pastoral sensitivity???

I hope someone from St. George's Parish tells us this is all untrue.

Again, if so, shame, shame, shame.

JMHO,
Cathy

Cathy,

my main concern here is that a church that I always thought was at least on the path to restoration and had taken many steps towards restoration is going the other direction. Pastoral sensitivity or not, this is like you said a shame. But we who follow Tradition and heed the words of +JPII and Pope Benedict are constantly told, whoa, slow down, pastoral sensitivity, and that doesn't seem by all accounts to be happening here.

While we're on this, I wonder if any dramatic changes in Liturgical practice have taken place at St. Ann's in Harrisburg, PA since Father Michael's repose (Eternal Memory!). I certainly hope not, but any update would be appreciated.

mc

Let me ask a question, as I know that the Catholic Church is a bit different administrativly than the Orthodox Church. Does your bishop visit your parishes several times a year, with Hierarchal Divine Liturgy being served, normally followed by a dinner? Is there a open dialouge after dinner with the bishop fielding questions from the laity? Would this not be a good time for those in each of the BCC's parishes who are commited to preserving that which has been handed down to them to ask the bishops, point blank, and in front of everybody, just why these things are occuring? Maybe if the bishops see that people really do care, they will start listening to the wishes of the people as opposed to listening to the "tsilyati", the "Bishop's baby chicks", those clerics who tag along on a bishops coattails, jockying for position, who tell the bishop what they think he wants to hear instead of the truth.

Just a thought.

Alexandr

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...obviously I could go on and on! NO, they do not do that. In fact, one current Bishop was very proud of the fact that no member of the laity ever stepped foot in his office while he was Bishop of a particular Eparchy.

That should tell you what they think of us. We're just considered to be a bunch of dumb rubes in the pews who couldn't possibly know anything about our beloved Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

Again, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.

BTW, did I tell you that the parish I visited in Cambpell, Ohio had a woman walking around the altar, and she was semi-vested and received communion with the Altar Servers???

More to come......

Cathy

I am extremely disheartened to see such an attack against one of the priests without anyone who has posted experiencing the liturgy there for themselves. I too have friends in the parish and have been told that the new pastor has continued the practices of Fr. Elias during the liturgy. The full processions, litanies and "sandboxes" have all remained intact. The fact that this good priest's reputation is being blemished by such shameful gossip is part of the reason why there are so few men who want to go into the priesthood.

There will undoubtedly be some things that will be done differently from Fr. Elias because no one is or should be a clone of another. Each priest needs to be able to make the place he serves his own, within reason. It seems that people on here are often quick to judge without knowing the facts.

The priests in the parishes are often subjected to a great deal of unfair criticism and gossip in their parishes. They shouldn't have to be burdened with more from people who don't even know them or have never experienced for themselves the things about which they are complaining.

MJ,

No one has attacked anyone...MC was asking a question to verify what was told to him. If you look at MC's other posts, his concern is with preserving tradition. If you can verify that these things are untrue, then please do so. I assure you that anyone concerned with preserving tradition will then sleep much better tonight.

With regard to what I have posted, I experienced these things with my own eyes. Yes, I know it's hard to believe...but true!

Cathy

Cathy,

I'm certainly one to appreciate and wholeheartedly support beautiful and traditional liturgy. One has to be careful, however, when speaking of tradition or traditional because it is always subject to an individual's interpretation and to time and circumstance. I'm sure that some who have attended the Campbell church their entire life truly believe that their experience of liturgy is traditional. I am certainly not saying it is or should be thought of as such. I'm simply saying we have to cut people a little slack.

There have been numerous attacks on Fr. Petras that have been uncharitable and unwarranted and I didn't want to see this starting on another priest. Not agreeing with someone does not give us the right to behave uncharitably.

Finally, regardless of whether or not there are full processions, little litanies or sand, I'm sure that I'll manage to sleep just fine, and I hope that no one else loses sleep over it either.

Based upon this statement I'm going to hedge a guess that you reside east of Cleveland. It appears that once you cross into Warren, liturgically things are very different. We've cut so much slack, for so long, the Ruthenian Byzantine Church is going to end-up hanging itself.

If I were picking just to pick, that would be one thing, but I'm not. There were so many "things" that were incorrect liturgically, it was sad. Sad that they haven't been able to celebrate what is rightfully theirs. Sad that their priest is too busy to educate and teach them what is rightfully theirs. Sad that they continue to tolerate Latinizations that JPII instructed we abandon. Sad that their Liturgy is so chopped-up and mangled that visitors left frustrated. Sad that they recite the Creed instead of sing the Creed because .... ? (I can't even come up with an appropriate answer for that one).

That's the problem right now, too many flavors in the Byzantine Church. Go back to a corrected version of the 1964/65 Liturgikon like Fr. Elias did, and see what happens to your churches. We need to tell our own parishioners who we are, like the parishioners in Aliquippa experienced.

I can tell you one thing, if I'm out of town and east of Cleveland, I won't be going to a Byzantine Church. I'll beat feet to the nearest Orthodox Church.

I'm not going to hijack MC's thread...if there's anyone out there who knows what's happening at St. George's Parish, please offer some insight.

Cathy

I really have no regrets about leaving the BCC. This thread was the icing on the cake. I'm being chrismated ORTHODOX today, and I'll say a prayer for the survival of the Greek Catholic church.

If it dies,you know where to find me!!

What happened to Father Elias?

I believe that the new pastor at St. George -- Father Kevin Marks-- is also pastor of St. Mary in Ambridge -- http://www.archeparchy.org/page/directories/parishes/ambridge.htm . Looks like they don't even have an iconostasis at that parish , so Father Kevin has his work cut-out for him there.

Wasn�t Father Kevin chaplain for the sisters in Uniontown?

Why not e-mail Father Kevin and get the scoop?

That information sheet on the Ambridge parish states that an icon-screen was installed in the late nineteen-nineties. So unless it has since been removed, the parish apparently has one.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge bless!

Ah, you're right. The photo must be old.

Dear John,

The Blessing of the Lord!

Father Serge

and later

MJ,

Can you provide specific examples of what you consider to be attacks? When I read Michael�s opening post to this thread I saw questions. He was planning to visit this parish and heard that there were changes. Then he asked if this was true and what was the relationship to the Revised Liturgy. I don�t see an attack here. Can you really condemn Michael for reporting what friends have told him when you also are reporting only what friends have told you?

If you really see an attack on the Forum I invite you to use the �Report a Post� feature to bring it to the attention of the moderator. Quote what you consider to be an attack (or in some way uncharitable) in that report and explain why. If the moderators agree with you the post will be edited or deleted as quickly as is possible.

You also accused others of attacks on Father Petras on this Forum. I am unaware of any such posts. Can you please report them immediately? My expectation, however, is that you won�t find any because you are equating principled disagreement with personal attack. I must ask you to be very careful with your use of the work �attack� since it is not right to accuse others falsely.

Admin

-----------

Regarding the parish in question I am a bit familiar with it. I have not visited since the new pastor has come but I do know that he has been well received and that the people like him. I also understand that he has chopped several of the litanies from the Divine Liturgy. I do not put this down to an implementation of the Revised Liturgy but more so to the fact that this good priest may never have experienced a full Divine Liturgy (it is never done at the seminary). I also understand that he has responsibility for two parishes.

Admin

Very little has changed at St Ann's at this point. Of course we don't have a pastor assigned at this point and I think that Msgr. George does not feel that it is his place to make any major changes as the "Priest-in-residence."

The Admin wrote:
"I also understand that he has chopped several of the litanies from the Divine Liturgy. I do not put this down to an implementation of the Revised Liturgy but more so to the fact that this good priest may never have experienced a full Divine Liturgy (it is never done at the seminary). I also understand that he has responsibility for two parishes."

Did everyone read, I mean really read, what was written here. A priest, who comes out of our seminary, may never have experienced a full liturgy! Can someone get me some duct tape, because I need to wrap my head before it explodes.

It is never done at the seminary. And for that matter, for example, our catherdral here in Parma has the faithful kneeling on Sundays with chopped up Liturgies.

What kind of example is this for the faithful and for our future priests?

Why can't we change it, because of pastoral sensitivity we are told. But when litanies are removed, the heck with pastoral sensitivities? Give me a break.

And don't give me this organic growth garbage to justify what is happening there. Our seminary is simply a bastion of revisionism period. Church membership is on a decline, more and more revisions and chopping up of the liturgy are coming, and no one is supposed to ask what the heck is going on? And when they do that is called an attack? I guess the light of truth really does hurt.

Etnick, as you begin your membership in Orthodoxy today, please do pray for the Greek Catholic church, we are in serious need of prayer.

God willing, one day, the curtain will be brought down on the battering ram of revisionism that is replete in our church.

mc

Wow! An open admission by a revisionist as to how they all see what tradition is, something that is always subject to an individual's interpretation. Tradition is what was, is, and will be and when you continue to make changes the only person interpreting and making things their way is yourself and the rest of the revisionists.

By the way, it's really big of you to state that you wholeheartedly support beautiful and traditional liturgy. Of course, with only one verse antiphons, kneelers, pews, kneeling on Sundays, confessionals, pre-cut particles, litanies removed, rosaries, etc.

Quote:

I'm sure that some who have attended the Campbell church their entire life truly believe that their experience of liturgy is traditional. I am certainly not saying it is or should be thought of as such. I'm simply saying we have to cut people a little slack.

Well if the Campbell people think that they are traditional, there is one word to describe that thought: wrong. They are wrong. And if clergy are patronizing these wrong thoughts then shame on them.

How can someone be cutting all this slack yet claim to support traditional liturgies?

Quote:

Finally, regardless of whether or not there are full processions, little litanies or sand, I'm sure that I'll manage to sleep just fine, and I hope that no one else loses sleep over it either.

This is the standard, textbook, and worn out revisionist argument, that these are just petty and unimportant items that aren't worth worrying about. Well then, why take them out? Since they are immaterial then let's do them and you won't be bothered? It's really time to come up with a better argument than this old song and dance. Yeah, try the organic growth argument. Yeah, it's on the next page of the excuse manual.

mc

Dear MC,

I couldn't have said it better. I attended Etnick's reception into the Orthodox faith today, and boy does it look appealing. I sat through the entire service with one huge smile on my face, knowing I may be there soon. Why? I am tired of all the excuses! Being Orthodox means no more excuses for why Byzantines choose not to do the right thing. In fact, an older Byzantine who attended the service said to me, "If I were younger I'd be doing the same thing. Being here reminds me of the early days before Latinizations." The priest told me afterward that the church is more than half former Byzantines....hmmm, I wonder why??????

Sad, Sad, Sad, Sad, Sad.

Cathy

"Can someone get me some duct tape, because I need to wrap my head before it explodes"

PLEASE don't let your head explode!!! Your thoughts are NEEDED for the survival of the Greek Catholic Church.

Dear Cathy,

I'm sure it's very appealing. But it's a matter of faith: do you believe in what the Catholic Church says is true, or don't you?

If you do, then the bad liturgy is a cross to be borne for the sake of the gospel.

If you don't, then by all means join the Orthodox Church.

I can't follow you, if you go, as much as I might like to, because I believe Christ established his Church on the Rock, Peter, and that to deny the primacy is to deny Christ. I know this probably sounds needlessly confrontational, and I don't mean it to be, except that I am Byzantine _Catholic_ for a reason, and no amount of revisionists can touch that conviction.

By the way, today was the feast of St. Leo, Pope of Rome, who believed in a very strong form of universal jurisdiction, and whom the Orthodox venerate as a great saint. Holy Father Leo, pray for us, both Catholic and Orthodox!

I've got a lot of thoughts on this issue, but it's late. Perhaps another thread is needed.

For a much less obscure celebration of Pope St. Leo of Rome, check 18 February.

No, I would deny this - the Gospel is badly served by putting up with bad liturgy. Bad liturgy is a challenge to all of us to strive unceasingly and prayerfully to improve the situation.

Father Serge

Yes, I would have to agree with the above statement. This thread is terribly off topic. Most of the posts as of late have nothing to do with the initial post or the subject of the thread. The area that it has ventured into does not belong in this section at all. I am warning posters to stay on topic in this section or the thread will have to be closed off.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

At St Anne's in Harrisburg, which as EO I attended sometimes, I found that it was more "Orthodox" than some Orthodox parishes I've been in...at least when Fr Michael served. He seemed to have an orthodox heart...a rarity found today...and now he is over there. May God grant His mercy to his soul. In my opinion, "Fr Michael..of Blessed Memory". Mike Ross

Michael Cerularius asks what's happening at St Ann, Harrisburg, since the death of Fr. Shear.

No new Priest yet. We pray for a good one, and that we be protected from the bad ones.

The "Priest in Residence" has imposed the Pataki Liturgy lock, stock and barrel. Father Shear, God bless him, just thumbed his nose at the Pataki shenannigans and served the Divine Liturgy as he knew it should be done.

I wonder how many like Father Shear are left in the Archeparchy?

Etnick,

Tell us more about your chrismation.

Our Ruthenian BCC people who are leaving because of all the degregations (Pataki, revision of Liturgy, etc) generally only have to recite the Creed before the Orthodox Priest. No new chrismation, not even confession.

What Orthodox group made you receive new chrismation?

Michael Cerularius asks,

"I wonder how many like Father Shear are left in the Archeparchy?"

Not many, Michael, I fear. I have yet to talk with one Priest of the Passaic Eparchy who has any respect for Pataki, but they do as he says because they know there will be reprisals, recriminations and wreckage of careers and retirements if they don't. Same dictatorial scheme as the Romanskyjs use...

With that, you can figure out why we have no vocations to the Priesthood is Passaic.

I recited the creed, but Chrismation is mandatory (at least in the OCA, which I joined.) The ceremony involved the creed, chrismation, tonsuring, and being churched, at the end. The last official step, of course was receiving communion the next day.

I forgot to add that the very first step was confession...

And it appears that all the "orthodox" Byzantine Priests are being moved to the hinterlands so that when the "new" liturgy is given to the people, the "orthodox" priests will, well you get the picture.

It is a shame that the younger group of BC's who understand theology will probably leave our church for Orthodoxy once this liturgy is put into place. I'm sorry that so many priests in Passiac are afraid of Bishop Andy. I don't understand why all this nonesense is allowed. What does Bishop Andy have on everyone? How did he get this much power? If he were so astute, why didn't they make him Archbishop?

Dear Pravoslavana,

I'm sorry you have less of a liturgy right now. My parish currently celebrates the Red Book, but the minute the Bishop steps in the church, we're relegated to the chopped-up Pitaki version. I don't know how much longer we'll have the Red Book, but at that moment I'll have a decision to make. I hope our God-loving Bishops rethink the pew book, and give us all the Antiphons and Litanies, marked as optional. Otherwise, I'm afraid my family will head for the door.

JMHO,
Cathy

"If he were so astute, why didn't they make him Archbishop?"

If they did, the doors of the churches would be flying off of the hinges! Must be a little restraint going on somewhere...

Etnick...Pravoslavnych christian.

Not so for me.

I was going to be received into the OCA with confession, reciting the Creed and communion per my bishop.

I elected to receive Chrismation, but it was not considered mandatory for me. I am truly glad that I did.

Michael

I'm curious as to why you weren't chrismated. Two different priests in two different parishes told me the same thing. Reception of converts is done by chrismation. They do not rebaptize however. These are two veteran Orthodox priests, who I assume are following the canons of the church. The research I did before even talking to a priest said the same thing.

How chrismation was an OPTION for you leaves me stunned!
Can you elaborate a little further, either here or with a PM.

Hesychios,
Pardon me for the Freudian slip. I read your post wrong. You were chrismated. But, my question still stands about it being optional. By saying "Chicagiensis" in your profile are you near the Chicago area? If so then Archbishop Job is your bishop as he is also mine. That would rule out different convert reception protocalls by different bishops, if such exists.

Yes you are correct.

Archbishop Job is my bishop, and I attend the cathedral of Holy Trinity.

When I was still a catechumen I was told that I would be received through confession and communion, while my two "classmates" would be Chrismated.

I asked why and it was because of my Roman Catholic confirmation. After several weeks the 'big day' was approaching and we were being prepared. I suggested to my priest that I would rather be Chrismated with the other two. My priest said "fine, I would prefer that too".

That's the story.

BTW, on December 24th it will be one year.

Drifting . . .

In the spirit of getting this thread back on track, does anyone who has preferrably attended or someone who is familiar with St. George's in Aliquippa know if changes have been made or not?

Otherwise, a road trip by someone (even myself) may be in order.

Monomakh

I have to agree with this one word comment two posts up, this is not only drifting but with the exception of the last post of late, is totally off topic. Conversion experiences, while we all like to hear about them, belong in another section. They have nothing to do with the purpose of this section and thread. I remind posters again to stay on topic as has been pointed out in the previous two posts, or I will consider the subject has run its course and be forced to close it.

Let's stay on topic from this point on.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Where is Basil, our Metropolitan, as this controversy swirls? (But then, it may be a controversy only for those of us who pay-the-freight in the Ruthenian Church... for the hierarchy the revisions may be a foregone conclusion.)

Has Basil offered an opinion on these matters? And how about the Eparchs of Parma and Van Nuys?

Surely Basil sees the erosion of our numbers over the last decade or two. Can he stand to loose 10% of the people he has left left, due to the promulgation of the Revised Liturgy? Or even 5%? Or are we in such a tailspin that losses of dues-paying parishioners no longer matters? (If we don't have new priests coming on-line, we can't keep churches open.)

I think Basil is from the Franciscan community at Sybertsville. Hasn't that group been in the vanguard of Liturgical experimentalism for a long time? Alas, perhaps this is the answer to my question.

God save us from ourselves.

I always thought Bishop John of Parma was a good shepherd. I respect him tremendously.

I think it is important to remember the special relationship the Ruthenians have with Roma. It did not come into the communon as a synod, the way the Kyivan church and the Melkites had.

It was a band of priests who came under the obedience of Roma and basically left their bishop behind. Subsequently the (sub-Carpathian) Ruthenian church was controlled by the Latin hierarchy, and even their bishops were suffragens of Latin bishops. The Apostolic succession appears to be derived from western lines, not eastern ones.

All of the hierarchies erected for the sub-Carpathian Ruthenian churches in Europe and North America were elevated by the Vatican on the Popes authority. In doing so (extracting them from control of the local Latin ordinaries) this was an exercise in the Popes Supreme authority over the church.

I don't know how long the office of Major-Archbishop has existed in the Catholic communion, but no sub-Carpathian Ruthenian church anywhere has one. So in short the Metropolia of Pittsburgh is totally dependent upon the Holy See. It is the child of the Vatican.

It doesn't seem to me the bishops of the Metropolia see themselves as leaders of a Sui Iuris church. They certainly do not have a history of prominent, tough talking, independent minded hierarchs in their tradition to give them inspiration, or something to emulate.

Perhaps an abbreviated liturgy with inclusive language is the best one can hope for with a history like that.

Michael

Slava isusu Christu!

Michael -- my brother -- an insightful post.

"So in short the Metropolia of Pittsburgh is totally dependent upon the Holy See. It is the child of the Vatican."

Then, I wonder what our father the Pope thinks about the recasted Divine Liturgy his children have fabricated? Perhaps like Moses when he meandered down Mount Sinai to find the Golden Calf the Hebrews had formed?

In Christ,

John

I thought I read that these changes were being made at least in part with suggestions from somebody in Rome.

Perhaps the Oriental Congregration? I doubt the inclusive language is coming from His Holiness, Benedict XVI.

Well, the Monastery of Chevetogne, Saint Anthony's Church (between the Pontifical Oriental Institute and the Russicum), the Pontifical Greek College, the Church of Saint Athanasius in urbe, and a whole lot more are under the direct jurisdiction of the Holy See - and I can assure you from personal experience that they do not do the sort of things that the revisionists are seeking to coerce the Ruthenian Metropolia into doing. Nor are such aberrations characteristic of the Eparchy of Lungro, the Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi, or the Apostolic Exarchate in Athens.

Father Serge

Father Bless!

I have to ask then, why is the Metropolia going through this horrible trial?

I find it hard to believe that there is no higher plan, what is the plan? What is the motivation?

It is said that generals usually plan for the last war, rarely the next one. Is that what has happened here...some 1970's agendum coming to life?

Or perhaps the idea is to crop short the liturgy enough to make it easier for any priest to handle two or more parishes on a Sunday?

My first inclination was always to trust the bishops, and I posted that opinion many times in prior discussions. But I am on the outside looking in and not a liturgical scholar by any means, the level of alarm coming from the insiders has not abated so I have to wonder how it ever came to be like this.

Is everyone on this board perhaps overreacting?

To All:

Although I have attended a Byzantine parish for six years now, I am relatively new to the forum. I am already alarmed reading what some of the proposed new changes might be.

I get the sense reading different threads in the RDL forum that most are against the proposed changes.

So my question is: what can we do about it? How do we make our voice heard? Is it too late to do anything?



Z Bohom

The question has been raised of why the Pittsburgh Metropolia is going through this trauma. I suggest a careful reading of my book, but meanwhile here are a few thoughts:

a) much of the problem originates in the specific history of what is now the Pittsburgh Metropolia;

b) as the questioner suggested, some of the problem originates in the not-uncommon tendency to prepare to fight the previous war, so to speak. This has led to the adoption of certain presumptions which motivated the reform of the Roman Rite after Vatican II, coupled with a refusal to examine dispassionately the results of that reform. In spite of strenuous assertions to the contrary, these presumptions are not held by the Orthodox, or by most Greek-Catholics.

c) Pittsburgh is indeed suffering a clergy shortage - and that is not unique to the Pittsburgh Metropolia. Whether a wholesale recasting of the Divine Liturgy would somehow alleviate that clergy shortage is highly debatable.

d) there are still those who cling to the notion that the Pittsburgh Metropolia needs a Liturgy which would be unique to that jurisdiction - having little or nothing in common with the Orthodox or with other Greek-Catholics. That Rome has mandated the opposite goal does not impress the supporters of that argument (probably because the underpinnings of the argument are emotional).

I hope that will do for a starter. Again, please read my book with attention.

Father Serge