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#208541 - 06/27/06 11:42 PM The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Pseudo-Athanasius Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 545
Loc: Tinley Park, IL
I've been reading Fr. Petras' articles from his website, and I came across one called "Liturgical Length" . There is much in the article of value, about the defect in spirituality that makes many clamor for short liturgies. But, what is of interest to me, especially in the context of our new liturgy (available for download here ) with its abbreviations, is the following passage:

Quote:
To begin, I wish to make my conviction clear. I do not think we should try to make the Liturgy as short as possible, and that the parish Liturgy should be about an hour in length. The desire to make the Liturgy as short as possible comes from the idea that it is only an obligation that we have to do to be in the divine good will. Sometimes this idea is not completely conscious, but it is an attitude in which the Liturgy has little value in itself and is only a legal requirement. In this case, the quicker it is performed, the better, and the time spent in the Liturgy is boring. Our great-grandparents devoted more time to Liturgy, often two hours or more, and it was the most important thing they did during the week. Many outsiders are still afraid to go to a Byzantine Liturgy, because they fear how long it would take. Today, though, a strictly legalistic attitude is less common.
The bigger question is the place of the Liturgy in our life of faith. This, in turn, has been affected by the way we learn truth, or, to put it in more secular terms, the way reality is presented to us. We might say that in our Church, the icon is the window into reality, but in the society in which we live, television has become our window into the world. This touches the lives of every person, even those few who react against it and refuse to watch it. There is, of course, nothing intrinsically evil about television, for it is a gift of God, but like every benefit given us we are able to distort its value. I don’t mean simply the content of what is shown on television, but the very medium itself. By its very nature, it can make it more difficult for us to distinguish between reality and fiction. A television story can take on the feel of reality, while reality can become like just another story. More than that, it makes entertainment the most significant life value, and the Liturgy, which is not entertainment but communion with God, becomes judged by those same standards. Since television shows last about an hour, an hour becomes the maximum time a Liturgy can take, and if the quality of our worship is not “entertaining” enough, it will seem much longer.
I quote at length so that no one will think I am misrepresenting Fr. David. I also acknowledge that he speaks with approval of the recognition that shorter liturgies are not better. But I wonder if the "one hour" criterion that he states was a working principle of the IELC. Is this why antiphons are shortened and litanies are removed?

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#208542 - 06/27/06 11:49 PM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Nec Aliter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 142
Loc: USA
I actually understand Fr David to be arguing against the "hour length" idea. Anyone else?

Nec

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#208543 - 06/27/06 11:53 PM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Pseudo-Athanasius Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 545
Loc: Tinley Park, IL
It's an ambiguous sentence. Perhaps he can clear it up. Read the rest of the article and see if I have misinterpreted him.

I take the sentence to mean "I do not think liturgies should be as short as possible, and (I do think) that the parish liturgy should be about an hour in length."

If he meant that he didn't think liturgies should be as short as possible and that liturgies shouldn't be about an hour in length, that would be a strange way to say it. The first part would argue against a general principle, and the second would argue against a specific length. It would be weird.

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#208544 - 06/27/06 11:59 PM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
As an outsider I can say this is somewhat hard to understand. I've never been to a liturgy that is as short as an hour in length. That is not even taking in to account the Proskomedia and Orthros.

I think the fastest I've ever been in is about an hour and twenty minutes for the liturgy itself. That was in a weekday liturgy with fairly light attendance so the communion line moved quickly.

Andrew

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#208545 - 06/28/06 12:26 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Nec Aliter Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 142
Loc: USA
Having read more of the article from Fr David's site I would say he is arguing against the idea of limiting Liturgy to one hour. He critcizes the idea of a "one hour time frame" later on:

Quote:
Our great-grandparents spent much more time on Liturgy than we do, and we tend to view them as primitive and backward. However, they may have had more wisdom than we do. One of the Fathers of the Church once said that we need two hours of prayer to come into the presence of God. Again, I am very much aware that this will not be acceptable to modern sensitivities attuned to the one hour time frame, but we should be humble enough to admit that our faith in God and desire for God is weaker. At the same time, i am encouraged that there has been some restoration since the time of my youth. Then, a generation or two ago, everyone was into minimalism, and the shorter Liturgy was the ideal. Since then, we have recovered an appreciation for spirituality somewhat , though we often separate it from liturgical worship and connect it with our individual relationship to God.
Nec

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#208546 - 06/28/06 03:18 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Pseudo-Athanasius Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 545
Loc: Tinley Park, IL
Dear Nec,

I don't think you are correct. The rest of the article makes the (very good) point that our preoccupation with short liturgy is sign of a spiritual malaise. The paragraphs I quote seem to say that one hour is the correct length for liturgy in the present TV age. Our holy ancestors could last 2 hours, and we should revere them, but we should have one hour liturgies.

If he had meant otherwise, I submit that he wouldn't have said "I do not think we should try to make the Liturgy as short as possible, and that the parish Liturgy should be about an hour in length. " but rather "I do not think we should try to make the Liturgy as short as possible, or that the parish Liturgy should be about an hour in length."

Perhaps Fr. David can clarify the obscure sentence?

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#208547 - 06/28/06 03:26 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
At one time it was the policy of the Antiochian Archdiocese in the USA that the Sunday "Mass" should begin at 11 and end at 12, including a 5-minute sermon.

People in general who didn't like long services ("long" is a relative term, of course), used to say sarcastically that they didn't think they should have to carry a lunch to Church. Oddly enough, bringing a lunch to Church on Sunday is an authentic American custom, and was particularly the done thing in Presbyterian Churches in Pennsylvania almost into the twentieth century - they would have the morning service (rarely the eucharist; perhaps 4 times a year - otherwise whatever else they do), set up tables (outdoors in good weather, in the church hall in inclement weather), have their meal together, and then go back into the "sanctuary" for their 2nd dose. The minister was supposed to preach at each service for a minimum of two hours per service - and that was just the sermon.

Me, I like both divine services (ours, not Calvin's) and good meals - but I see no reason why I should have to carry a stop-watch to Church!

Fr Serge

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#208548 - 06/28/06 06:33 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
DAVIDinVA Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 481
Loc: VA
I guess the length of DL will vary depending on variables such as the length of the readings, the sermon and how many folks are going to Communion. I also wouldn't want the priest to rush through the Liturgy or go at an exageratedly slow pace to meet some artificial deadline. But then I'm the type that stays for the post Communion prayers and the very last hymn.

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#208549 - 06/28/06 07:28 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
ByzKat Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 840
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
And yet we're also asked to restore Vespers and Matins (see the Liturgical Instruction of some years back) - there certainly is a tension between convincing parishioners that they should come to one or two additional services, and at the same time trying to "pump up" the Divine Liturgy in length.

God bless those parishes that celebrate a "fuller" Divine Liturgy - but it might very well be counterproductive to continue to act as if the Divine Liturgy is the ONLY celebration we worry about...

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

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#208550 - 06/28/06 07:40 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
JohnS. Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/02
Posts: 1165
Loc: East
With all of the great work of the Metropolitan Cantor Institute, there's no longer any excuse why all of our fully-functioning parishes can't celebrate Matins and Vespers on a weekly basis. We have the books now and the propers. Perhaps the Saturday evening printer's Masses are an impediment to Vespers?

Again, why not focus on unpacking our full recension, so that we can experience the full radiance of our Eastern Christian heritage?

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#208551 - 06/28/06 09:25 AM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Administrator Offline

John
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5900
Loc: Virginia
I agree with Jeff about the need to restore Vespers and Matins. I have done quite a bit of work providing books for Vespers and Matins (with a lot more to come!). Most of the few parishes that celebrate these services do so with books I published during the past 20+ years. I note this so that no one can complain that I am ignoring these Divine Services.

I don’t see any tension whatsoever between restoring the fullness of the Divine Liturgy and adding these other vital Divine Services. The issue is one of quality of Liturgy (including the necessary attributes of attractiveness and good singing). The issue is definitely not one of the length of the service. When the quality of the liturgy is excellent 70-80 minutes is not long at all. When the quality of the liturgy is poor 15 minutes is too long.

The Revised Divine Liturgy must be opposed because it takes us away from the Ruthenian recension.

biggrin

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#208552 - 06/28/06 11:45 PM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Pseudo-Athanasius Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 545
Loc: Tinley Park, IL
I chatted with my pastor about this article of Fr. David's, and he assures me that Fr. David means to say that the liturgy shouldn't aim at a one-hour time.

That's good. In that case, I agree.

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#208553 - 06/29/06 02:07 PM Re: The Liturgy should be an hour in length?
Administrator Offline

John
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5900
Loc: Virginia
The length of the service is relative.

Not too far from my house is St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church. The majority of the parishioners are immigrants from Egypt. I just love their newspaper advertisements for Christmas and Theophany. They go something like this: “Great Vespers at 6:00 PM followed immediately by Matins at 9:00 PM followed immediately by Divine Liturgy at Midnight followed immediately by the Agape Feast at 3:00 AM”.

biggrin

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