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A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208947 06/24/06 06:15 PM
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Pseudo-Athanasius Offline OP
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I propose that we convene a conference to discuss the proposed liturgy of the Byzantine Church. What has been developed in secret and without consultation needs to be examined in public and with consultation. Let's get together, read over the new translation, since it is now public thanks to Fr. Serge, and make our thoughts known.

I envision that we go through the liturgy point by point, perhaps over a Friday and a Saturday, and compare the Greek with our old translation, our new translation, and the various ways our Orthodox brethren have chosen to translate each passage. Then we can discuss whether our new translation is an improvement or whether it should be rejected.

I would love to fly Fr. Serge and Fr. David out for the meeting, so we can have this discussion together, face to face. The discussions would be moderated and recorded for distribution via CD, DVD, and internet.

It would be ideal if representatives of our hierarchy such as Fr. David attend, but we must meet even if they don't attend.

I think mid-August would be best. August 6 is the one-year anniversary of our Whiting meeting, but I will be in California. Perhaps the following weekend?

I know it is soon, but we must act soon before the liturgy is promulgated, which may happen as soon as September.

What do you think? Who's with me?

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208948 06/24/06 06:23 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

What a profound idea. It could be the one event that would begin a revival for our moribund Church. Let it be so. A Sobor over the liturgy. How much more perfect can it get?

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208949 06/24/06 07:03 PM
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Pavloosh Offline
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PLEASE!
It is not a Byzantine Liturgy - it is the Pittsburgh Archeparchy of the "Ruthenian" Catholic Church's version of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
The question that I've asked several times here on the Forum has never been answered: why have the hierarchs of the Pittsburgh Archeparchy gone off on their own as if they "own" the Liturgy? Instead of working towards unity, they distance themselves further from their Ukrainian, Russian, Melkite, Belorusyn Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters who celebrate the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom so beautifully. How sad!

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208950 06/24/06 07:07 PM
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djs Offline
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I think that it would be terrific if there were a workshop held by the all of the members of IELC in which they would they discuss the decisions that they made and the various ideas on authentic tradition, organic growth, and pastoral sensitivity that informed each decision.

I think that such a workshop could also include a discussion of possible alternatives, but only if there were children of traditional age present.

I would propose that the best venue for such a workshop is the Uniontown pilgrimage.

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208951 06/24/06 07:15 PM
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djs Offline
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Pavloosh:

Fr. David has spoken to this point. The bottom line: the Hierarchs of a sui juris church ultimately must make a judgment - or shoot an arrow, using Dan's metaphor - about what is proifitable unto the salvation of the souls in the Particular church for which they are responsible before God.

BTW have you ever loooked at the GOA's English text?

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208952 06/24/06 08:17 PM
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incognitus Offline
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If Father David has said what djs has attributed to him, then Father David is mistaken. The Instruction from the Holy See clearly encourages the various Churches using the Byzantine Liturgy to cooperate - and there is no reason at all why this cooperation should not begin with an initiative such as is proposed here.

A workship with all the members of the IELC would be nice - but we have no way of ensuring that they would turn up for it, particularly since we don't even know for sure who they are.

Uniontown is a bit late if promulgation in September is mooted about. Early August sounds better to my untrained ear. A weekend is probably essential, since it's obviously too late for most of those interested to re-schedule their vacation this summer.

Location: I hate to have to say this, but we will be much better off if we are not on Ruthenian property - the sort of pressure that would invite would be, at the very least, a great nuisance. In principle, it would be well to do this in some sort of Church setting, with a good chapel available. Would the Ukrainian seminary in Stamford, the Melkite seminary in Methuen or perhaps the Ukrainian seminary in Ottawa be open to us? Perhaps even the Greek seminary in Brookline; they have been known to host conferences (but can we have the use of a chapel there?).

What about Ligonier? The place is lovely, and we would be able to use the chapel.

Any other suggestions for the location?

Agenda: if we are going to do this, we'd better get busy.

I'll have to have a new paper bag made for the occasion!

Incognitus

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208953 06/24/06 08:22 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Pavloosh:

Fr. David has spoken to this point. The bottom line: the Hierarchs of a sui juris church ultimately must make a judgment - or shoot an arrow, using Dan's metaphor - about what is proifitable unto the salvation of the souls in the Particular church for which they are responsible before God.

BTW have you ever loooked at the GOA's English text?
The analogy holds if 1. The arrow hasn't been shot at the sheep; and 2. The shooter has built up trust in the first place. Shrinkage by 2/3 does not inspire confidence. It's just the way things are. I think the people will quickly fall in line if the shepherds reestablish trust.

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208954 06/24/06 08:30 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Incognitus,

I'm not familiar with all of the places you mention but most seem to be on the East Coast. Do you have any suggestions for the fly over zone?

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208955 06/24/06 08:41 PM
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How about a monastery?

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208956 06/24/06 09:09 PM
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djs Offline
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Sorry. Fr. David has spoken to this point, but the bottom line comment is my own.

The Instructions exhort cooperation, but in no way do can they be taken to represent an abrogation of canon law and/or sui juris status. The idea the text of our liturgy should be decided not among our very people but in a Ukrainian seminary? biggrin biggrin biggrin Now I know from posts on the forum that there Ukrainians who want to take over the church of Uzhhorod, and Prague, but this foray is unprecendented. Achhhhhhhhh. Maybe that is what is meant by an attack on the Carpatho-Rusyn recension! biggrin biggrin biggrin

Quote

What about Ligonier? The place is lovely, and we would be able to use the chapel.
Ahhh. That's better. Back in our stara krajina. And so close to home.

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208957 06/24/06 09:13 PM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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djs - I believe that the idea of a Ukrainian locus was in an attempt to have any suggested conference on neutral ground

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208958 06/24/06 09:17 PM
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djs Offline
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Quote
The analogy holds if 1. The arrow hasn't been shot at the sheep; and 2. The shooter has built up trust in the first place. Shrinkage by 2/3 does not inspire confidence. It's just the way things are. I think the people will quickly fall in line if the shepherds reestablish trust.
1. Tell me the process for discernment that is being applied here.
2. From your own posts I know that you know better about these numbers than is suggested by your recent posts here and at BEMA.

Where is this mistrust coming from? Strike at the shepherd and the flocks will be scattered!

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208959 06/24/06 09:22 PM
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djs Offline
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My dear OLOS,
I hope you didn't mind my injecting few biggrin biggrin biggrin . Even so, what is this idea of neutral ground? Is the idea of the meeting to present this work to the people of our Particular church. If so, then let's have it in OH, PA or NJ to maximize participation! Up in New England? Yoy.

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208960 06/24/06 09:23 PM
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Pseudo-Athanasius Offline OP
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Gentlepeople,

I think we need to pick a conference center or a hotel. If we meet in any sort of church or monastery, it will cause friction and heat for many clergy. Let's find a meeting place in a metropolitan area, and stay away from churches. We wouldn't want any of our beloved clergy to be disciplined for what we do.

I like flyover country, since it is where I live, but I will travel anywhere. Perhaps, though, to protect our clergy, we should meet in a metro area without a Byzantine (Ruthenian) church. Perhaps Milwaukee or St. Louis? Both are easy to get to, and have no parish.

Let's also try to keep this thread on topic, and not get personal. Liturgy discussions are more apt to inspire fistfights than discussions of one's mother's sexual history. Let us speak in a spirit of charity.

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208961 06/24/06 09:26 PM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Oh indeed not biggrin

How about Disneyland - the Florida one - nice and warm and Incognitus's paper bag [ we will have to design a special for this occasion ] would not go unnoticed there

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