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Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208977 06/25/06 06:00 PM
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ElijahmariaX Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
I don't know if I share your optimism of "I'm not so sure that promulgation is a done deal" but the remainder of your plea is certainly worth considering and a decent justification of such an endeavor. Let us all implore the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete for guidance in this watershed time.
FDD
I am aware of a few parishes who have submitted numbers for ordering the new books. If the books are indeedin production then the money is spent whether the bill is paid or not.

If that is the case then the final cost to the Church will be much higher than the net 30.

Eli

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208978 06/25/06 06:46 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Originally posted by Elitoft:
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Originally posted by Fatherthomasloya:
[b] Glory to Jesus Christ!

I think that the conference should be hosted in a venue where it is open and accesible to as many people as possible.

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB., MA.
IF those who are mandating the current draft of the liturgy do not call this meeting or council for the expressed purpose of opening the draft to further change, then what would be the point of convening anywhere in the world?

What is the purpose of this sort of informal meeting? What could happen there that is not happening right here and with more people involved and less expense?

Eli [/b]
Eli,

I've been thinking about your question. If enough people love the Church and take the issues seriously it may not matter if the bishops show up or not. Oh, I grant you, it would have been best if the bishops had called a sobor before the process ever began. But they did not do that. Then we go to the second best. The second best for them would be that they call this sobor themselves and arrange to have Father Kelleher and the entire translating committee at the the meeting and invite everyone clergy and faithful to participate. The third best for the bishops and I think for the Church would be for them to employ the "back door" method of leadership. It has its drawbacks but at least it is something. The "Back Door" method is to wait and see whether or if the people actually do anything and then the bishops run ahead of the movement and proclaim themselves to be shepherd. The risk of course is the people will say "Where were you when we needed you?" But then it does work sometimes.

But what if the bishops don't even do that? What if they decide that they don't care what the people want. Should we have the Sobor anyway? I believe strongly that we should for the sake of the Church.

This issue has the potential to make or break us. It is hard for me to imagine that the bishops don't care but what if they don't? They will be moved along or moved out of the way. It has happened before. There is no reason that it can't happen again. Liturgy is the work of the people. Let's go do it.

CDL

BTW Father has mentioned that he does not wish to lose members over this issue and believes that if the liturgy is forced upon us and we don't have a conference that we will probably lose some of our best members. That is not fair when so many of our priests have worked so hard to build up the kingdom and it isn't fair to us who have worked side by side with them.

One of the first encounters after liturgy was by a man who is ver loyal in the Church. He asked me "What is this business about forcing 'inclusive language' upon us through the liturgy? I left the Roman Church to find a liturgy with integrity." I told him that I don't fully understand it myself but that he should write the bishop with his concerns.

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208979 06/25/06 08:20 PM
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incognitus Offline
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Conference venue? I really don't care all that much. Chicago is a nice place, with one of the most beautiful Greek-Catholic churches anywhere in the world (Yes, I mean Saints Volodymyr and Olha - AAAGGGHHH; IT'S UKRAINIAN! horrors).

Another possibility - don't laugh - is Las Vegas. If you want a bargain, this is it. As long as everyone takes and observes a strict NO GAMBLING pledge, you won't believe how inexpensive Las Vegas is - and there are often bargains available in plane flights too.

If Bishop John of Parma is prepared to be favorable, what's wrong with some venue in or around Cleveland? We have three bishops in that city (counting suburbs).

On the other hand, what is wrong with New England? The major airports are handy, the sea food is delicious, it's not usually roasting hot -and will the anti-Ukrainian fanatics kindly control themselves? Using a conference facilty does not involve changing one's religion, let alone one's ethnic identity.


Ottawa, granted is not the Paris of the New World - but it is pleasant. The Melkite church is absolutely splendid. And those who like to eat will not be discouraged to know that the Henri Burger in Hull is one of the top French restaurants in North America.

For that matter, we could probably arrange to hold our conference on a cruise ship at very favorable rates - does anybody have any contacts in that business?

Anyway, will someone take charge of organizing the venue, since time is short. Those who care will manage to get there (whichis not to say that someone should not be in charge of transportation and housing and seeing to it that this does not turn into a three-day fast). Unfortunately the best conference organizer I know is out of touch for a few days, or I would volunteer him.

Time's a-wastin; let's get busy.

Incognitus

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208980 06/25/06 08:26 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Karl? Father Tom? I'll help as much as possible. BEMA? We organized the last one. Why not this one?

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208981 06/25/06 08:49 PM
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Diak Offline
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Incog has a good point - Stamford has fine facilities, a beautiful chapel, and likely the dorm rooms are greatly unnocupied for the summer - and it is still "neutral turf". Easily accessible from La Guardia, JFK or Newark. During my diaconal program days we pretty much had the place to ourselves in the summer.
FDD

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208982 06/25/06 08:56 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Incognitus,

Please send me a pm ASAP or an email. Are you going to come if we plan it? Info. desparately needed from you.

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208983 06/25/06 08:58 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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If BEMA organizes it the easiest local will be Chicago, obviously. I'm conversing with others. We should know shortly whether BEMA can or cannot pull this off.

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208984 06/25/06 09:19 PM
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Ung-Certez Offline
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This whole dilemma brings to mind that Buffalo Springfield song "For What It's Worth":

...stop childern, what's that sound, everybody look what's going round...

Let us all hope this situation will be resolved without massive casualties.

For what it's worth...
Ungcsertezs

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208985 06/25/06 09:22 PM
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Diak Offline
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That slumbering bear called Sensus Fidelium starts to awaken...
FDD

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208986 06/25/06 09:30 PM
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ebed melech Offline
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Originally posted by Fatherthomasloya:
My vote would be to host the conference in Chicago. I would be willing to join others in assisting our esteemed presenters with travel expenses.

--Fr. Thomas J. Loya, STB., MA.
Father Tom, et al,

I would agree with the idea of Chicago as an appropriate venue. One reason in particular is the presence of the Liturgical Institute at Mundelein Seminary near Libertyville. Perhaps they would be willing to host such an event, given the nature of the topic.

I would also think that we would need to better define the purpose or desired outcome of such a meeting. If it is to bring two great thinkers on this topic together to present their views in a formal dialogue then I think it will add great value. I am unclear as to how it would effectively involve the many laity and clergy who will come to participate. Is it an opportunity to make suggestions to the committee on next steps? Clearly a delay in promulgation is called for in light of the evidence provided by Father Serge. If the hierarchs agree to a delay, it certainly begs the question: what next?

Parameters can be identified as far as expected behaviors, but it would also be helpful (even essential) to define the scope and desired outcome of the meeting.

My two cents -

Gordo

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208987 06/25/06 09:34 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Friends,

The awakening sensus fidelium bear has at least one name. That name is BEMA. I've been in conversation with Father Thomas Loya and John Segvich, president of BEMA and have sent messages to at least two principle speakers in an attempt to put together a Sobor or Conference for August of this year. We put together a Whiting renewal gathering so I'd guess we can pull this off as well.

Who can come? Will Incognitus reveal himself? Will Fathers Keleher and Petras come. Will some of our bishops come. Will clergy and faithful come?

If we host it it will no doubt be in Chicago because a majority of us live here and because we may not have time to arrange it any place else. Let us know through this forum or by pm or email ASAP so we can measure the feasibility of such a meeting.

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208988 06/25/06 09:36 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Gordo,

Your suggestions are well founded. Let's talk. See the email I sent you.

CDL

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208989 06/25/06 10:01 PM
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Diak Offline
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because a majority of us live here
While I am not opposed to any place in particular, I think looking overall at who is concerned and would like to participate (many in our Church, even outside of the US) that statement is a stretch at a minimum. Let's try to at least keep things in perspective, please.

Chicago at least would be within driving distance for some of us here in the Midwest.
FDD

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208990 06/25/06 10:02 PM
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Father Deacon Diak:
What is this "neutral turf" idea? And how is it connected to the idea of sensus fidelum? If this meeting is to have impact, it must feature broad participation of our faithful. Or maybe I misunderstand the impact that is being aimed for. confused

Re: A Call for a Conference on Our Liturgy! #208991 06/25/06 10:06 PM
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Carson Daniel Offline
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Originally posted by Diak:
Quote
because a majority of us live here
While I am not opposed to any place in particular, I think looking overall at who is concerned and would like to participate (many in our Church, even outside of the US) that statement is a stretch at a minimum. Let's try to at least keep things in perspective, please.

Chicago at least would be within driving distance for some of us here in the Midwest.
FDD
Diak,

Hhmmm..... I said a majority of BEMA lives in Chicago. Are you coming?

CDL

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