I have a question about the new useage of the Greek term Theotokos in our new English translation of our liturgy. I understand that our OCA friends use this in their English translation.

I have also noticed that some of our priests now refer to Mary exclusively as "Theotokos" in sermons, discussions, etc.

Could someone explain why the term "Mother of God" was found to be lacking and replaced? I am puzzled why our People's term "Bohorodice" or even our Russian cousins term Bogamateri was not used.

Thank you

David

Very good question. Personally, I prefer "Mother of God". It is a warmer term --and near and dear to my heart.

Where "Bohorodice" means "Mother of God",
"Theotokos" is literally “birth-giver of God”; the main title of the Ever-virgin Mary, defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

I cannot answer why, in Greek, the two different terminologies were used.

The term "Mother of God" is not wanting, and it is certainly used. But it is not an adequate translation of "Theotokos". For a simple example, check an accurate translation of the hymn to All-Holy Virgin sung during the Anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - both terms appear.

Icons are often inscribed with the Greek abbreviation for "Mother of God" if she appears in the Icon.

As for why not use Bohoroditsa - an obvious result would be that parishes of Slav origin would use that, parishes of Romanian origin would use Nascatoare de Dumnezeu, parishes of Arabic background would use Walidatil-il-lah, and so forth - all while serving the Divine Liturgy in English! We can take in a modest number of Greek words. We cannot invent Ruthenian-English, Ukrainian-English, Russian-English, Albanian-English, Arabo-English and who knows what else.

Does anyone, for instance, wish to be invited to "sing the Biwajib in the grave hlas?"

Fr. Serge

I would like to thank everyone for their quick replies. I do understand that Theotokos is not the meaning of Mother of God and that we have other non slavic churches in the our wonderful Byzantine heritage.

The question remains why this greek word in an official English translation. Seems out of place to me. Continue to be curious as to the reason.

Bogarodice literally translates as Birther or Birth Giver of God. Mother of God would be Bozhe Materi. I think that the reasoning is semantical, We have all heard Christ refered to as The Word or Logos, but when was the last time you heard the term Slovo used? Theologically, I can see no error with either Birthgiver of God or Theotokos. Theotokos does roll off the tongue easier though!

Alexandr

I have a very limited knowledge of Greek (so take this with a grain of salt). Theotokos is a word, as fas I know, that can't be fully translated (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!), so the attempt really isn't made. There are phrases in English that kind say what Theotokos says but it isn't close enough to translate word by word.

I think that's it, now could some expert please tell me whether my theory's on track or not?

Nathan - your theory is quite correct. "Birth-Giver of God" doesn't do it. Besides,that expression isn't really English either.

Fr. Serge

We use Greek words in our faith in many instances - some of these off the top of my head would be Alleluia, Jesus, and Christ.

Personally, I am partial to that great Aramaic word we use all the time – Amen.


~Isaac

If we're going to use "Theotokos", "Alleluia", and "Amen", what's wrong with "Holy, holy, holy, Lord of Sabaoth "?

Yes, and how about "Orthodox", and "Unto ages of ages, Amen!"

We are, afterall, as Fr. David pointed out, correcting the text -- why not do it up right?

JMHO, Cathy

And if "Lover of mankind" is taboo or liberals, why not just use Philanthropos? It can be explained and understood, just as Theotokos and Pantokrator, etc. are.

Oops! I meant: "If 'Lover of mankind' is now taboo to liberals, why not use the original term Philanthropos. This term can be easily explained and understood just as the other Greek terms: Theotokos, Pantokrator, etc."

Actually, a number of translations from the Russian Church Abroad use "man-loving God", which, I think, precisely parallels "birthgiver of God" in being precise and keeping nuances from the Greek, as well as in being awkward English.

In particular: "man-loving God" does precisely what the Vatican instruction called for the Latins to do: it preserves the reference to both individual and collective. "Lover of mankind" does NOT; it refers to a collective, and only by a further inference to each member. (I could love mankind and further its progress by killing the weak, for example.) Sadly, I also know homosexual activists who would like very much to see "man-loving" used as a standard epithet in Christian liturgy....

Suppose "Lover of mankind" were excluded, on the grounds mentioned above. What could be used as an alternative, that shows God to love both each individual human being, and the human race as a whole?

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

There's always Father Michael Gelsinger's neologism: Man-Befriending God.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge:

Forgive me for being just an old English teacher who has battled feminist language for the past 34 years.

This last just sent chills up my spine and ruined my appetite.

For all the beauty of the language that has been the genius of the Byzantine tradition Churches, is this the best the man can come up with?

Makes me remember even more the admonition that my pastor gave me when I was in high school:

"The attention to detail and the reverence that a man brings to his liturgical practice is a direct measure of his faith."

In Christ,

BOB

Dear David,

A very good question, one that I have myself. I do hope soneone is able to answer it for you, I can't.

For me, in public worship, "Mother of God" works very well indeed. I don't see that the use of a greek word (even one as awesome as "Theotokos") is an aid to prayer.

the unworthy,
Elias

David,

The confusion here comes because there are two terms used in our liturgy and the current English translation renders both as "Mother of God." These terms are Theotokos and Metera tou theou. They are NOT synonymous. In fact, Theotokos is a COINED term, i.e. a word created by the fathers to make a theological point that was ratified by the council of Epheseus. The two terms become a short hand for Christ being both fully divine and fully human. Theotokos emphasizes that Mary bears God in her womb while Metera tou theou emphsizes that Jesus if fully human too.

The terms are used in the same sentence to make this very point in the hymn "It is proper and just…" after the consecration. The first phrase calls Mary Theotokos and the second phrase calls her Metera tou theou.

The terms come into Slavonic in a similar fashion as in Greek.

Theotokos – Bohorodice – Godbearer

Metera tou theou - Mati Boze – Mother of God

In Greek Theotokos is not a word but a coined new term. The same is true of Bohorodice in Slavonic. They take the same two words as did the Greek God + Bearer and create the new term. This is why I prefer doing the same in English. Thus every instance of Bohorodice would become Godbearer.

The second phrase is a normal word phrase in both Greek and Slavonic. Thus we see all English translations rendering the phrase Mati Boze as Mother of God.

I believe that our current translation does a disservice by merging the terms. In effect we lose the distinction that exists in both the Greek and Slavonic by translating two different terms using the same English phrase.

Most English Orthodox jurisdictions have elected to use Theotokos transliterated into English instead of coining a new term in English. Bishop Kallistos argues for this approach and dislikes the use of "Godbearer" in particular because he feels this is more appropriate for translation of the term associated with the saints. Thus the choice of the current liturgical commission for Theotokos is logical and consistent with wider usage.

But I do think we lose something by not continuing the tradition of coining a term. Perhaps not a lot, but we definitely don’t have a readily understandable term from the deal.

I hope this answers your original question.

Steve Puluka
Cantor
Holy Ghost Church
Mckees Rocks PA
http://www.puluka.com

Please note: God-bearer = Theophoros, as in Saint Ignatius the God-bearer. Our Liturgy often refers to the God-bearing Fathers, and so on. Nestorius could quite happily have called the Virgin Mary the God-bearer; he refused to call her Theotokos.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge,

Bless Master!

So what is the most accurate translation of "Theotokos"? Not being a linguist, I always accepted that it meant "she who bore God".

Also, can you explain the meaning of "God-bearing"?

Tschau!

Gordon

Birthgiver of God is the correct literal translation of Theotokos. Surprisingly though some who favor literal translation everywhere else oppose it here.

Some argue that it makes Holy Mary sound like a surrogate to our modern English ears but the problem with that arguement is that it can be turned around and said that the title mother does not necessarily imply a women gave birth to child in our modern world. She may well be the legal mother but adopted the child or hired a surrogate herself.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Gordon, dear Father Deacon,

Theotokos means, in the best I can do in English at the second, "she who has given birth to (a) god", while "Birth-Giver of God" implies an ongoing activity - just as "God-bearer" does, even though the two activities are not the same.

"God-bearer" (Theophoros) is predicated of Saint Ignatius of Antioch and certain other important canonized theologians, as well as monastic saints, so this term is "taken", so to speak. It's etymologically related to "Christophoros", but nobody has ever thought of Saint Christopher as having a maternal relationship to Christ!

"Theotokos" is used in Latin as well as in Greek, and is a term well known to theologians for centuries. "Birth-Giver of God" seems to have been coined by Isabel Hapgood.

Fr. Serge

I wanted to post a thought in my thread. First I am approaching this subject from the Byzantine-Rusin Church tradition. I can recall my great aunts and uncles, "Maria" and "Bohoroditsa" this and that. Mary was always referred to as the Bohoroditsa. Why? Because they brought a church infused with an east slavic tradition. It just seems to me that by "returning to the original Greek," my Church is throwing off centuries of wonderful Slavic and Rusin influence. Was everything that came after Kyrill and Methodius flawed? Now I read the Eastern Catholic Life, and it's "Theokotos" everywhere. Thank you.

I believe that Catherine Doherty, of blessed memory, wrote a most edifying book called Bogoroditza, which I do not hesitate to recommend.

Incidentally, "Bohorodice" is one form of the vocative.

Bogoroditsa is simply Theotokos in Church-Slavonic.

Fr. Serge

It is truly amazing how often the vocative case comes up on this forum. Thank God, modern Ukrainian still has the vocative!

That is a good question.

Well, if you would prefer a Latin word or phrase, Deipara or Dei Genetrix are available. But if you know your English, you know already that there are many Greek words which have passed into English. Theotokos is a technical theological term. Try traslating this simple chant into English:

Ave, O Theotokos,
Ave, O Mater Dei,
Ave, Ave, Ave Maria!

Fr. Serge

Why introduce a Greek word into an English translation of a Slavonic liturgy?

I believe that they used the Greek version and only compared it to the Slavonic.

Interesting. So the Ruthenian Church is no longer a Byzantine Slavic Church?

Asking this question because of the use of the word Theotokos is like asking if ROCOR was no longer a Byzantine Slavic Church. I know my Jordanville prayerbook uses Theotokos when necessary and no one would ever think to ask if ROCOR was no longer a Slavic Church.

technically the greek came before the as you call it, the byzantine slavic church. as a matter of fact, it wasn't until the 300's ad that latin became the langauge in the western empire that most people spoke........... they spoke greek. latin was more of a government/business language then. so
i wouldn't be too upset by theotokos. it is after all, the original term and great history surrounds the term.
oh, and where do you think cyrill and methodios devised the cyrill alphabet from? hmm..... greek.

Please read the post prior to my last question.

I did not ask my question simply because the Greek word "theotokos" has been imported into the Ruthenian liturgy, but because John K said that the new translation is based on the Greek version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and was only compared with the Slavonic version.

That is historically interesting, but quite irrelevant. The liturgy is not an archeological dig, and so we are not trying to find the oldest elements and throw out the rest.

If the translators wanted have an esoteric sounding word in the English translation of the liturgy, why not just use a Slavonic term for Mary's divine maternity.

Probably because they were not looking for an "esoteric sounding word", but the right word to use - just as we say "Amen" rather than "So be it", and few would describe that as Judaizing.

I would guess that MOST of the members of this board belong to predominantly Slavic rather than predominantly Greek eastern Churches; yet we say "troparion" rather than "tropar" (Slavonic) or "growth song" (if one insisted on Englishing everything). Does that mean that this forum has an agenda to "de-Slavify" the liturgy? Not at all. I think it's safe to say that given a choice between troparion / kontakion / Communion Hymn and tropar / kondak / prichasten, we generally use a set of "commonly accepted terms", some Greek, some Hebrew, some English - but few of which are Slavic, since there is usually a more widely-used Greek or English term in Orthodoxy for any particular Slavic term.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you for your response. I still do not see any reason to introduce the Greek word "theotokos" into the Byzantine Slav liturgy, since it has not traditionally been used in the Ruthenian Church in the USA (unlike "amen," and the other terms you referenced).

God bless,
Todd

One opinion is that Saints Cyril and Methodius when translating the Slavonic liturgy did not retain this term. Many terms such as the vestments were retained but without the "ion", so "sticharion" becomes "stichar". Terms for the warm water used in the chalice such as "zeon" became "teplota".

The Hymn to the Mother of God/Theotokos/Bohorodice/Birth-giver of God/God-bearer/ sung after the Troparion at Vespers and Matins is called "Theotokion", but in Slavonic became Bohorodicen. One problem is which term would you use in Engish for this hymn.

The venerable term "Theotokos" has always been problematic in terms of translating it into modern languages. As an iconographer, I have always retained the Greek letters when labeling an icon of the Mother of God. But these letters (MP OY)do not say "Theotokos" but "Miter Theu".

Interestingly, here is an example of an icon labled not in Greek, but Slavonic. It is an wonderful example of Serbian iconography from the 14th century icon of the Virgin and Child painted by King Stevan Uros III in 1327 and completed by his son, Stevan Dusan. http://www.kosovo.net/decanska_y.jpg

By translating the term "Theotokos" for liturgical use, we may be actually closer to the spirit and tradition of Saints Cyril and Methodius.

Regardless on how you feel about this issue/non-issue, don't we need a sense of wonder and awesomeness about the incarnation of God the Word? Mary said it beautifully, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. For with God nothing will be impossible." And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." Luke 1:34-35,37-38

Oh, great and marvelous wonder!!!

Ray

Does the OCA's use of Theotokos negate their Slavic heritage? Does the Antiochian Church's use of Theotokos negate their Arabic language heritage? I personally welcome the use of Theotokos in the DL, and it is one of the revisions I'm actually happy with.

Ryan

I do not see how it could. That said, if you read the posts in this thread in order, you will see that my question arose because a poster in this thread claimed that the new revised liturgy used a Greek version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom instead of a Slavonic version.

I love the word theotokos too, but I still do not see why it was introduced into an English translation of the liturgy of the Ruthenian Church. What was the pressing need for this revision?

Changing substance to essence I am fine with, dropping the filioque is great, but what was the reason for the introduction of the term theotokos into the Ruthenian liturgy. Now let me be clear about this, I am not offended by the use of the word theotokos in the divine liturgy, while the use of so-called inclusive language on the other hand is offensive, but what is the logic underlying this particular revision?

Todd,

I see your point and had never really considered it before. Hmm...I'd go for it.

Another note, I am not entirely opposed to Birth-giver or God-Bearer either as titles for the Theotokos.

This is more than a claim and, I believe, goes to the fundamental question of the status of the Ruthenian Recension for the RDL; see Status of the Ruthenian Recension. I am comfortable with the terms Theotokos and Anaphora but they seem forced in the RDL translation. Why the need for this Hellenization when there are English words and expressions, rendered through the Slavonic at the least, that work quite nicely?

Dn. Anthony

Anaphora as a technical term is not really translatable - but I'm not so sure that it is being used in that technical sense in the Deacon's ecphonesis Let us stand aright! Let us stand in peace! . . . Moreover, no one has ever claimed the sanction of and Ecumenica Council for the word "Anaphora".

Theotokos, however, is another matter. This term has the direct sanction of the Council of Ephesus - and the Latin version of the Acts of that Council retain the Greek term Theotokos. There are many titles for Her; surely we can cope with one Greek word. Consider this: if the Byzantine-Slav Churches were to insist on retaining Bohoroditza in English, the other Churches of various linguistic backgrounds would have every right to insist on doing the same thing - with the result being liturgical cacophony. The Greek word has been established in English usage for a couple of centuries; we can learn to put up with it.

Fr. Serge

Me again - sorry about that! I just read some posts that I missed earlier in the day.

Anyone who claims to fear that the use of one Greek word will make him cease to be Byzantine-Slavic has a simple solution available: serve and pray in Church-Slavonic (and please learn the alphabet). Or serve in modern Ukrainian, modern Belarusyn, Slovak, Russian, or any other Slavic language that may please you.

But that whole sub-argument reminds me of a friend of mine who forty years ago (well, okay, 39 years and 11 months ago) was after me to "re-translate" Silent Night into English, not from the original German (which I don't speak anyway), but from the unoriginal Carpatho-Russian - and no, I am NOT making that up!

As an illustration of just how absurd this could become, who would like to translate this sentence:

Please psall the Bi-Wajib in the Grave Hlas.

I'm not holding my breath.

Fr. Serge

It is pretty clear that no one in this thread has argued that the use of single Greek word in the Byzantine Slav liturgy alters the liturgy radically. But the use of the Greek version of the liturgy instead of the Slavonic version, as John K and Deacon Anthony mentioned, is another matter altogether.

Deacon Anthony, thank you for the link to the other thread, it was quite informative.

God bless,
Todd

Since the Council of Constantinople I (and Nicaea before it) sanctioned the use of the term homoousios to describe the dependent relation of origin of the Son to the Father, it follows that this term should no longer be translated into the various vernacular languages but should simply be expressed in the original Greek.

Possibly. It is perhaps ironic that the Old Believers use "consubstantial", which other Orthodox theologians have assured me causes them to have grave concerns about Latin theology based on such an (ahem) misleading, if early and oft-used, translation.

ALL of these discussions are conditioned by the fact that the Roman Catholics translated Latin liturgies into English, and translations of Eastern liturgies came on the scene much later and borrowed already-used patterns of speech. For example, there is no regularly-used and easily distinguished English translation of Deipara; but this term and its cognates are used seldom enough in Roman prayers, and the term does not carry quite the same historical weight, so that both Mater Dei and Deipara can both be read as "Mother of God." This situation with Byzantine (and perhaps other Eastern) liturgies is different; the parallel terms are sometimes used in close conjunction, and in some case in VERY particular ways. It is completely reasonable for translators to try and distinguish them in "destination" languages.

Put it another way - it's not that a new term is being introduced, so much as that fifty years ago two terms were conflated; and the translators (like those in most Orthodox Churches) now consider the terms worth distinguishing. I would bet that fifty years ago, such a terminology would have been considered "too Orthodox", in contrast to "good Roman Catholic terminology" like a consistent "Mother of God."

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

technically the area that the antiochians ethnically come from (syria, etc..) would have used greek for centuries as the daily language so the Theotokos issue isn't negating their heritage. People tend to forget for many centuries after Christ's acension the roman empire spoke koine greek (kloine meaning common) as the day to day language. sure there were many other languages but greek was understood and spoken by many.


the term theotokos theologically is the correct term, do some ecumenical council history.
So be it.
ameen is the correct way to say amen in slavonic, why no uproar about the english amen being used?
when they start singing here i am Lord and having liturgical dancing replacing the small entrance i would worry

I'm quite aware of the widespread use of koine Greek in the Roman Empire of the time of Christ. However, it ceased to be the common language in Palestine well over 1,000 years ago. My experience with the Antiochian Church in the USA (which I admit is limited) is that there is more of a sense of Arabic identity, linguistically speaking, then there is a sense of identity with Greek.

Ryan

Please chant the Necessary Wisdom in the Seventh Tone.

Read up and see Father Serge's post on the term Theotokos and Ephesus. I fail to see your point as an ecumenical council carries enough weight to convince me. ethnicity has nothing to do with what term to use, Theotokos is the correct term. As it has been hashed out a million times, no english words can match it. Perhaps some of our british isle friends can tell us about the debate that I heard is going on about this very fact. Theotokos IS an essential part of Christianity, defined by an Ecumenical Council and the usage has nothing to do with stepping on anyone's ethnic toes. This is one of the positive aspects of the rdl, the usage of Theotokos.

You have completely misunderstood my intent. I am not among those arguing against the use of Theotokos, and if you read through my posts in this thread, you will see that I have also said that the use of Theotokos is one of the revisions that pleases me.

Ryan

Excellent, Todd. This term is far more subject to difficulties (and even some controversy) in translation (substance, constubstantial, essence, being, etc.) relative to the similarities between Mother of God and Theotokos. It would make far, far more sense to render homoousios literally before anything else.

Having been a diak for a long time, I have to admit that much of this is also in the respective merits of the poetic-musical as well. I'm sorry, but in the Midwest hearing "Thayyy-oooh-toe-kusssss" just does not go over when "Mother of God" cannot be decimated in that way and is much easier to keep in metre.

"Mother of God" was also how Fr. German chose to translate in the Old Rite Prayerbook. He does mention Theotokos, but only a few times. He uses "Mother of God" as far and away the standard reckoning of the term. Knowing his familiarity with the corpus of Old Rite texts, that to me is far more compelling of being part of the translational heritage of our Slavic usage.

Go through your favorite text of the Divine Liturgy and count the number of Greek words that turn up - there are quite a few.

Fr. Serge

Dear FAther Deacon Lance,

Good try, but that's not what "the Bi-wajib" means!

Fr. Serge

While being quite obvious to anyone who has looked at very many Divine Liturgy texts, I'm not sure what that has to do with discussing the translational differences from Greek in one particular term. One would expect some Greek influence in a liturgy of Constantinopolitan provenance...

Father Deacon,

The original poster's question was why the translators didn't use "our people's term" instead of Theotokos. I have had several people tell me that we NEVER used non-English words in the Divine Liturgy till now, so Father Serge's point is germane.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

I've not heard anyone say NEVER in that way, but point taken, although certainly the Archimandrite is free to clarify as well. I do think Todd's point is very insightful and appropriate considering the general topic.

OK, I'll bite, in the Chrysostom Liturgy, what are they? I'm not talking about English words that have a Greek origin (vestment names, diskos, deacon, presbyter, liturgy etc.), obviously, but words that are transliterated in the liturgical text from the Greek. The RDL has introduced two of which I'm aware: Theotokos and Anaphora. (The word catholic in the Creed I take as a special case.) For both these words there are Slavonic expressions, which are properly ours, and which yield in English as equivalent forms Birth-giver of God and oblation. Were those who gave us the Slavonic liturgy remiss in not using the canonical designation Theotokos? [As for the use of Hebrew terms, how about Sabaoth which the Greek, Slav and Latin liturgies retain. Why not, a forteriori, change it from the 1965 version to bring it into conformity with what has been transmitted in the original liturgical texts?]

It is one thing to have no choice and to have to go to the Greek. We have a choice, it is the Ruthenian Recension. So I ask again, is our primary point of reference regarding the "Rite" (Чинь, Διαταξις) what is given in the Ruthenian Recension, or as it is found in the 1950 Greek edition by Rome, or scholarly speculation that then becomes liturgical expression?

Dn. Anthony

I don't understand this. Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy of the Second Vatican Council, was promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI On December 4, 1963. It only guardedly advanced the use of the vernacular for the Latin rite. I would have thought, by comparison, that the 1965 liturgicon translations was at the vanguard for the common use of English in the celebration of the liturgy.

Consider also, for instance: Isabel Florence Hapgood, tr., Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic (Greco-Russian) Church. Compiled, translated and Arranged from the Old Church Slavonic Service Books of the Russian church, and collated with the Service Books of the Greek Church (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin & Co., 1906).


Dn. Anthony

Dear Father Deacon,

But layfolk were praying in English LONG before that - and these prayers were well-known to anyone involved with Catholic culture in the New World. Thus, the GCU printed a Psalter in the 1920's - and used the Douai translation. I have a Greek Catholic children's prayerbook from the era that renders the small doxology as "Glory to the Father", and Bohoroditsa as "Birth Giver of God" - but everyone knew that "all Catholics" said "Glory BE to the Father" and "Mother of God", and these are the translations that made it into our Liturgy. Thus, long before the Second Vatican Council, texts like the Rosary prayers conditioned how early translations of our prayers and texts came to be - whether we used the same or different translations, you couldn't avoid the fact that Latin-Rite Catholics already had translations of many of the same sorts of texts.

Jeff

When the Latins come up with a poor translation of something or other (which is not surprising, since Latins tend to translate Greek from Latin instead of the original - i'm still recovering from the discovery that for the Syro-Malabar 1962 Eucharist they first translated the entire Syriac text into Latin, approved the Latin, and then translated the Latin back into Syriac!), we are not in the least obligated to copy their mistake ("per omnia saecula saeculorum" is an obvious case in point; there are others).

Fr. Serge

Try "Eucharist" - that is beyond question a Greek word! But to the wider issue, it is of course possible for a Greek word to "become" an English word (as Eucharist has done), and to be more-or-less anglicized into the bargain. This emphatically does not mean, however, that it ceases to be a Greek word. "Regime" is common enough in English - but it's still a French word (or in some contexts, an Italian word: you can tell by the meaning).

In case anyone is wondering, this also works in reverse - English words sometimes find themselves functioning in other languages, occasionally with meanings that seem unrelated (check out the origin of the Russian word вокзал, which in Russian means a train station). If this sort of thing amuses you, track the word "taxi" from Greek into several modern European languages, including English, and then back into Greek.

And so on.

Another question caught my eye:



Both the Greek and the Slavonic are primary points of reference here, for texts and rubrics - and so are certain other editions of particular importance. Speculation is another matter; it may be interesting but it cannot be a primary point of reference!

Fr. Serge

Deacon Anthony,

I appreciate your posts, because you express far better than I can the concerns that I have about the new revised liturgy.

That said, I still see no reason why the Greek term "theotokos" had to be inserted into the English language translation of the Ruthenian Church's liturgy. Does this Greek word appear in the Slavonic version of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?

God bless,
Todd

But it does not satisfy the criterion I specified. Even so, where does it occur, transliterated (like Anaphora and Theotokos), in an English version of the liturgy?

And when they are not in agreement? Again, I raise the questions in the context of Status of the Ruthenian Recension.

Dn. Anthony

What's wrong with per omnia saecula saeculorum?

AJK asks:



In Latin, there is nothing wrong with it. But the usual Roman Catholic translation is either "world without end", which is sheer nonsense, or "forever and ever", which isn't much better. Translating a noun with an adverb surely requires a serious explanation.

Fr. Serge

I thought that was of Anglican origin and was adopted as common English usage by Catholics. Consider this from a Collect in the 1549 BCP:

Todd, it does not, in either Old Rite or Nikonian Slavonic texts. It does not in any Ukrainian translations. I believe the first time it shows up specifically as Theotokos in a Slavic liturgical text is in a "Living Church" manuscript. And, as I mentioned previously, the arguably most competent translator of Old Rite texts into English decided to retain "Mother of God".

Thank you.

Don't we sing (for those that still use some Slavonic)

...Bo-ho-ro-di-ce Di-va, Ra-du-sja......

not....The-e-e-o-to-kos Di-va, Ra-du-sja.......

Sounds funny don't it?

I learned that Sts. Cyril & Methodius created a language based on Greek lettering for us Slavs to use. Nowhere have I read that they picked-and-choosed certain words for inclusion into the Liturgy.

As I've stated before, what is next, replacing Hospodi pomiluj with Kyrie laison, or Christos Voskrese with Kristos Anesti?!?

oops, missed a typo...

should be ra-duj sja (not ra-du-sja)

Since you ask, I have frequently heard "Kyrie Eleison" chanted at a Divine Liturgy which was otherwise entirely in Slavonic, and I have frequently heard "Khristos Anesti ... " sung with gusto and enjoyment at Pascha in an otherwise Church-Slavonic service. Nobody fainted from shock, or went away muttering about "hellenization".

And, to top it off, there is a lovely recording available in L'viv, I think from the Studites, of various pieces of liturgical music, including "Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos" - which is the only piece sung on the entire CD in Greek!

Then again, do you really object to singing "Azios" at ordinations? Do you not know that our older Church-Slavonic liturgical books actually prescribe the chanting of "Kyrie eleison" at certain times?

Loyalty to one's own culture is a fine thing - but it should include an appreciation of the roots of that culture.

Fr. Serge

Can't contribute re responses etc in Slavonic - but as recently as last weekend I heard responses to petitions in DL that were made in French being answered by "Kyrie eleison ' and the chandelier was still in place afterwards.

I also know that when in Lourdes and we are using French for some Litanies and prayers , the response in the Litany is also ' Kyrie eleison '

The Liturgical books from Chevetogne [ peoples books and the Hieratikon ] also use 'Kyrie eleison' too

I remember listening to a recording of an excerpt of a Divine Liturgy at the Serbian Decani monastery, where on would normally expect OCS, and the opening litany was chanted in Greek but using the haunting and surprisingly modern-sounding Serbian chant.

I thought that Theotokos meant "God-bearer" [which might be emphasizing her pregnancy] which leads to "Birthgiver of God" and "Mother of God" as titles.

To be honest, I am absolutely blown-away by the detailed and studied use of the various languages by the participants on this thread. It points out something that linguists learn early on in their studies: Languages change, both from forces within the language community as well as from borrowings. The former is demonstrated by the varous accents that occur in a language, i.e., American English, and the latter by the acquisition of words like 'taco', pizza, lager beer, brats, etc. (OK, I'm of Greek background - food is critical!!)

So, in the Christian community, we too evolve. We use neologisms from our own community and also terms from 'foreign' sources that are applicable to our current circumstances.

English speakers cannot in any way avoid the influence of the English speaking church, including the Protestants: 'Thy will be done..." (Catholics were still using Latin only at the time of the rendering!) as well as grabbing terms from the various ethnic communities that constitute Catholo-Orthodoxy, including proto-Christian Hebrew, Greek and Latin as well as the Greater Slavonia.

The real question is, what do we do now in 2007 in North American English speaking communities? How much do we officially include in the liturgical texts from the various sources?

The first guideline (from the Church) is: see what the Orthodox do in terms of language, liturgical praxis and customs. The Holy See clearly intends that Eastern Catholic churches be indistinguishable from our Orthodox counterparts so that when reunion comes (Please God, may it be soon) we are all integrable into a Universal church as TRUE representatives of the various 'particular' churches. (Hate that term.)

The second guideline, from Vatican II, is that the Liturgy must catechize the Truths of the faith to the people. Scripture, liturgy, sacramentals (Latin term!), and CCD type materials.

So, since culture evolves, so must the Church. And in this Internet age of instant communication and publication of information, the Church MUST be ready to catechize using every tool available. It's the Gospel of Christ and His particular teachings that must be primary to evangelization.

The use of various terms to exemplify the Truth (which Pope B-16 constantly emphasizes) must be either directly understood by non-believers (and believers alike) or readily explainable. God-Bearer Virgin, Mother-of-God, etc come readily to mind. The use of Greek or Slavonic terms can be useful - IF EXPLAINED DURING LITURGY - and they represent a useful tool in explaining the finer points of theology. But simple English terms that don't require a semester course in Systematic Theology to be understood seem to be preferable. We're here to evangelize the people of the Earth, not fossilize varying theological perspectives or ethnic pride.

And we, as Eastern Christians with a unique perspective on the mysteries of salvation, must use whatever tools we have to bring people to the Lord and Savior. The perspectives might not 'vibe' with the usual Western European perspective on salvation, but people might understand one or other of the Eastern theological perspectives.

I sometimes encourage my African-American co-workers/friends to go to an Ethiopian liturgy to see what 'true' African Christianity is all about. Perhaps the use of the chant and the finger-cymbals will let them see that there is something else other than the 'Blazing Bible Shout-for-Jesus Church of God and His Holy Apostolic Saints'. I give them icons too - like the Wedding Feast of Cana and tell them that Jesus' first miracle was done before His time and at the request of His Mother to avoid embarassment for family friends. (Family is REALLY important, not only in the African-American community but for everybody!!) The Ethiopian litugical language, Ge'ez, isn't easy, but the music is.

In summation, I'd just say: evangelization is job number one for Christians. Whatever we can do to get the Gospel of Christ into the hearts and minds of people is worth doing. Whatever language/music/clothing/activities will help this is what we should be doing.

We must use our particular charisms to get the message out - without regard to the pure externals. But it's the FAITH and our understanding of God and His Mysteries that will bring people to Christ and to the Father.

The externals embody our understanding and as long as they are significant and explained, then we should be able to evangelize as the Lord told us to do. If they lead to ethnic or Me-First acrimony, then they've got to go. The Church isn't the Smithsonian.

May the Lord lead all His human flock into the Kingdom as the Father wills. And may the Holy Spirit kick butt to get us there.

Blessings!

Dr. John
Linguist, theologian and general roustabout

Might I add to the confusion and point out that the Moscow Patriarchate's new Chinese-Slavonic prayerbook translates Bogoroditse as 圣母, which is literally 'Holy Mother' - thus using precisely the same term as the Roman Catholics. Lest anyone should think this is new, the old Classical Chinese translations of the service books in the early 20th Century did the same.

There is nothing wrong with using the term "Mother of God" as a translation for Theotokos. Its use in the RDL is just another example of change for the sake of change. The RDL should be scrapped and the books burned.

Dear Dr. John --

I agree that we should all be living examples of the Gospel and our church, and that the people in the church should serve as chief evangelizers. However, when one has celebrated the Full Ruthenian Recension for years on end, how do you now feel spiritually uplifted by a chopped-up, watered-down, inclusive language filled RDL? This RDL makes it difficult for me and my family to walk into a Byzantine Church. You have no idea what an act of faith it is week after week. My own kids, ages 7 & 11 are o.k. with becoming Orthodox....all because of the RDL! So, how do I ask others to come and experience the Byzantine Faith, when my faith in my baptismal church is weakening each week I hear the RDL instead of the Full Ruthenian Recension?


And if our faith is expressed through our Liturgy, what does this RDL say about the Byzantine Church? It says, we are so weak, we are willing to allow the secular world into our worship.

When you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten. Restore the full Ruthenian Recension, instead of handing out another dose of Kool-Aid. We then might actually grow.

"Theotokos," or the Rusin-Slavonic "Bohorodice" -- the translation I remember from seminary days is "God Bearer" -- The mystery of God becoming human, taking human form, and the acceptance by Mary to be the chosen vessel of His birth.

What is the literal meaning of the Slavonic?

Dn. Anthony