Of course, everything about the "New Liturgy" is made a big secret by its perpetrators, but it just occurred to me that the introduction of the "New Liturgy" would be an ideal time for the Revisionists to jettison the Church Slavonic transliterations from our pew books.

"Oh, you're free to use Slavonic where you choose," the Revisionists will say, knowing fullwell that in two years it will all be gone from our Ruthenian churches, and that in a generation Slavonic will be cobwebs and dust.

Just watch... I bet these people do it.

There are seven other churches "of the True Faith" within twenty-five minutes of my home (two OCA, one Serbian, one Greek, one Macedonian-Bulgarian, one HOCNA and one Antiochean.) Unfortunately, no Russian churches. I'm checking them all out, to see which one gets my weekly "envelopes" after the Revisionists have their way and trash our Ruthenian Divine Liturgy. Others are beginning to talk about looking for the door, too.

Enjoy the Church Slavonic while it lasts.

Of all the other churches you mention, Pravoslavna, the only one I've seen use Church Slavonic is the Serb. If you visit the Serbs, you may find an almost total lack of congregational participation in the service, except for the choir and servers, however. Maybe the local parish is different.

As to pew books without Church Slavonic, there are already parishes that have English only booklets, without an authorized new book having been introduced. Some parishes have them to temporarily replace books that fell apart.

Dear Jim,

I am sorry to always intervene on this point, but just because a congregation doesn't sing, doesn't mean the people don't participate. Why am I uncomfortable with the way Ruthenians look down on other churches with other traditions?

I love congregational singing, but it is not the only way of participation. Sometimes, silence also speaks.

the unworthy,
Elias

Pravoslavna,

Out West, Church Slavonic has died out many years ago, long before the current revisions' appearance, thanks to Bishops and priests who seem to strongly dislike it. The responses often given is " no one knows Slavonic anymore" or "It's not a vernacular language". While both answers contain truth, the first response is a self fufulling condition since we have been admonished NOT to use Slavonic in the Liturgy. While it is true that Slavonic isn't a vernacular language, it hasn't been a vernacular language for hundreds of years. Similar arguments are used in the RCC regarding the use of Latin in liturgical celebration.

I grew up with Slavonic only liturgies being the norm. These days, my only opportunities for Slavonic liturgies is when I visit local OCA churches. Even then, Slavonic isn't used on a regular basis.

Steve

Dear Prav.

I was amazed at how much I was regularly asked for more "Church Slavonic" in the Divine Liturgy. And it was always much appreciated.

the unworthy,
Elias

Elias, point well taken. It need not necessarily be viewed as a failing. However, some Ruthenians expect congregational participation as a given, and are surprised when they don't find it. They may not necessarily look down their noses at a lack of it, though.

Dear Jim,

I am sorry to always intervene on this point, but just because a congregation doesn't sing, doesn't mean the people don't participate. Why am I uncomfortable with the way Ruthenians look down on other churches with other traditions?

I love congregational singing, but it is not the only way of participation. Sometimes, silence also speaks.

the unworthy,
Elias [/QUOTE


The OCA church I've been attending has a choir and you also hear the people singing. It's a nice mix of both. I'm going to a different parish today for vespers, so we'll see how it goes there.

If you or a parish near you is using Lekvulic 1978, keep the current books for Slavonic services - BETTER YET, convince John or Jerry (or me!) to prepare a 32-page booklet with all the hymns of the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic, in several traditional musical settings. Then use that side by side with any new English books.

Honestly, many parishes would continue to use such an item, at least at Pascha and Nativity, and right now none of our books have decent music for the Slavonic. If you want new people to learn it, only hearing it occasionally, they could use some help.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Some phonetic help with Slavonic would be helpful too.

Ask and you shall receive: Church Slavonic Pronunciation Guide (large)

This is from the Metropolitan Cantor Institute's Church Slavonic page, with much good material provided by Cantor Steve Puluka. (We are working on a Church Slavonic glossary / dictionary, as well as parallel Church Slavonic / English texts for the major liturgical services, according to the Ruthenian use.)

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Great. Thanks Steve and Jeff!

Now I need to learn the alphabet.

John, I found this site helpful when I was trying to learn.
http://www.learnslovak.com/index.php?pageID=3&lesson=1.

hope it helps!
-Katie g

Thanks Katie.

Does anyone know if any of our beautiful Carpatho-Rusyn hymns are online?

Sadly, in the Van Nuys Eparchy a previous movement already did away with Slavonic in the liturgy.
Our cathedral parish (Van Nuys, CA) still has the 1978 Levkulic books in the pews, however the liturgy pages were removed (ie torn out purposely) since it was thought at the time that Slavonic would never be used again liturgically in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. It's amazing what drives these sorts of decisions.

This happened almost 15 years ago, before there was any hint of a change in revision and music as we are seeing debated so vigorously here. These were not the "Revisionists" in the sense that Pravoslavna writes of in his original post.

Steve

We are not Great Russian, but we use Slavonic. Usually about two hymns per week. Some hymns are almost always done in both. The kids are also taught some prayers in both English and Slavonic in Sunday School.

It is true that Church-Slavonic was never a vernacular language, although it came closer in some places than in others (which may be why in German Church-Slavonic is called "Old Bulgarian). Until the Nikonian disaster, Church-Slavonic was gradually adapting itself to be more understandable in its specific cultural settings - thus one can distinguish a Muscovite recension (there's that word again!) of Church-Slavonic, a Kyivan recension of Church-Slavonic, a Serbian recension of Church-Slavonic and so on. Church-Slavonic was not a vernacular language, but it was not a dead language either.

What seems interesting in the context of the present discussion, though, is the perception - which is certainly justified to some significant degree - that the faithful of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia have been deprived of Church-Slavonic against their will. That is beyond question what happened in Hungary and later in Slovakia, so such a claim is at least credible in the USA.

One of the leading proponents of the revisionist Divine Liturgy has repeatedly attempted to dismiss any suggestion that before changing the Ruthenian Recension as published in the nineteen-forties we all need to experience that Ruthenian Recension in its unabridged, unrevised form as meaning that Church-Slavonic should be re-imposed, even by force. The argument is a non sequitur , just as people who prefer Greek usage are not required to demand that everyone should serve exclusively in Greek.

But this is a non sequitur that offers food for thought. It would be helpful to attempt to ascertain to what degree the imposition of English was welcomed, and to what degree the retention of Church-Slavonic was willfully prevented.

That's my only immediate comment, but I may return to this discussion - languages are an essential component of our cultural inheritance, and interference with languages, particularly by coercion, can have drastic results.

Father Serge

Allright...I'm a Noob to the board, but a longtime Byzantine.

While the church Slavonic is the traditional language used in our masses, how does one expect to attract new members, especially those outside slavic ethnicity? As I understand it, the Liturgy is supposed to be in the language of the people. Most in my parish don't even understand Slavonic anymore, and although I love to sing it myself, I understand why an outsider would not be attracted to it.

It's not a matter of being attracted to it. It's part of our tradition. Newcomers should accept what we have to offer,(Slavonic included). We shouldn't trash our history to please the few who may join us. After all, when you're the new kid on the block you observe things.

P.S. It's Divine Liturgy , not mass

I thought one of the longstanding traditions of the Byzantines was to use the vernacular. Is it not?

-just Wondering

Wow...nice welcome. I do believe I did use the word, Liturgy, did I not? And yes, VERNACULAR is the tradition.

I've been lurking on these boards for quite some time--mostly because it took awhile before a hotmail accout was made a "valid" account according to the registration policies. Heck, it's the only email acct. I use.

A little history of myself; I was born to a Slovak mother, raised in the Byzantine tradition, and my father was Irish Catholic (used to not be a church-goer). I was baptized in a Byz. church in Ct. I was put into parochial school in a Roman Catholic Church from grades 1-4. I received Communion and Confession during these times. I started going back to catechism at my Byzantine church in Grade 5, and discovered that I preferred the Byzantine Rite more than the Latin. I am now 30 years old, and was just told by my priest that I am indeed not a Byzantine (by tradition anyhow), but am Roman Catholic. Ooops! I am getting married next year, after which, I hope to officially change my Rite to Byzantine Catholic.

Anywhoo, after reading so many topics through these forums, I think people have to accept that the Byzantine Catholic Church is dying a slow death. I am often the youngest attendant at DIVINE LITURGY, which makes me feel a bit strange.

In the United States we are really no longer seperated by ethnic ties. Italians have married Irish, Polish to German, etc, etc. We are already talking about 3rd and 4th generation who do not speak their grandmothers' native tongue, much less Slavonic.

I know that my church is guilty of not "reaching out" enough to other cultures. It is easier to join a Roman Church--much more acceptance there.

I'm not saying that you can't have a special Liturgy once in a while in Slavonic (which I haven't seen in years, and quite frankly, I miss it), but you're not helping the church if you retain the old tradition of using Slavonic in "everyday" Liturgy. The church must "Evolve or Die". I don't like it either. I'm old enough to remember about 6 priests who have served in our church. On Easter Sunday, the Gospel would be read a paragraph at a time, once in English, once in Slavonic. Beautiful. Sadly, I have not seen this in many years.

Quote from stormshadow

And "few" is what there'll be if this is how they're welcomed.

(Sorry - back to the cute puppies and kittens ! )

I don't know if people understand my point. None of our churches (that I know of) have an all Slavonic Liturgy on a regular basis. I don't think having one quarter or less Slavonic in a Liturgy is going to send a possible newcomer screaming for the door. I don't understand the language myself, except for a few phrases. Yet, I enjoy hearing it and know where I'm at in the Liturgy. If you come into the Byzantine tradition clueless of it's customs, why would hearing some Slavonic intimidate anybody? They might get used to it and actually enjoy it.

My last post wasn't meant to offend anyone, I'm just a little blunt sometimes. Sorry..

Stormshadow

I feel I need to apologise - but I responded to your original post before you edited it.

However - you did use the term.

I understand what you mean about the use of language - I'm a Ukrainian Greek Catholic - and the only Ukrainian I know is liturgical - I can manage the responses and the Lord's Prayer - and that's about it


However I do not think we are dying

Anhelyna

Sorry, but gotta disagree with you there Stormshadow. It has been my experience that mantaining ALL the traditions, Slavonic included, is what has actually drawing people to the Church. 20 years ago, we worshipped in a 2 car garage. We now have 4 full parishes, with talk of 2 more on the way. And we use probably 60/40 Slavonic on Sundays, and almost exclusively Slavonic on weekdays. I had 36 students in the Slavonic class that I taught.
English has it's place, as does Slavonic, Greek, and the other languages. The trick is to balance it according to the needs of the parish. People are not as dumb as they are made out to be. Remember please that Slavonic and Koine Greek are NOT the vernacular in Eastern Europe or Greece. They are liturgical languages. There is no liturgical English, the closest being what is commonly referred to as King James English. I believe it is the responsibility of the Church to bring the populace up to the Divine, rather than bring the Divine down to the populace.
Let me give you an example from another Orthodox Church. For years, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in America, was considered to be amongst the more liberal jurisdictions in it's outlook. Conversions were few, and it maintained it's populace base due to the strong ethnocentric tendencies of the Greek people. (I know, Father Anthony and Alice are chuckling over that understatement!)
Then a few years ago, Geronda Ephraim came from Athos, and started a series of STRICT Athonite monaasteries in the US. The last thing Americans need, according to the renovitionists. More ethnic claptrap. Well guess what? Geronda Ephraims monasteries are booming! I lost track of how many there are now. Americans from all walks of life are discovering Athonite Orthodoxy in it's fullness.
It seems to me that the BC Church has kept on giving in to the renovitionists, Latinizers and modernists over the years, resulting in chasing many traditionalist members away, and failing to attract new members, while some of the Orthodox Churches are becoming MORE traditional in their outlook. So the score card reads:

The Renovationists -
The Traditionalists +

We're building new churches, and you are selling yours. Who is succesful, and who is not?

As a side note, I know that some will say that I am gloating. I am not. I feel sorry that the Byzantine Catholic Church is being rent asunder by those who would abandon Her traditions. I welcomed the signs that I saw of Her starting to reclaim her past. As Deacon Robert can easily verify, look what happened to the OCA Churches in the Scranton area when the OCA bishops changed the Calendar. My prayer is that the BC Church learns from the errors that we made, and profits by them.

Alexandr

Wish I had said that! Brilliant. All this talk about the vernacular has me seething. It seems to mean to me to make the service as similar as possible, to bring it down the the level of the average person, like TV programmes that are geared to avail to adult 10 years old. The lowest common demoninator does not attract people.
I agree with all Alexandr has said. People are looking to the Holy Spirit to lift them up to God. The Holy Spirit speaks through the theology of beauty (Pseudo-Dionysius) and through all the senses. We should be searching for more and to learn deeper and deeper thruths of God. Theosis is a long-long journey.
My parish is very traditional with all the liturgical services in Ukrainian and parish activities. People do come to the services, participate in the services and are richly blessed by their participation. yes, and we have have an adult discussion group during the week in addition to the choir practices, Ukrainian school, Ukrainian dancing, and Sunday School.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Sorry, but gotta disagree with you there Stormshadow. It has been my experience that mantaining ALL the traditions, Slavonic included, is what has actually drawing people to the Church. 20 years ago, we worshipped in a 2 car garage. We now have 4 full parishes, with talk of 2 more on the way. And we use probably 60/40 Slavonic on Sundays, and almost exclusively Slavonic on weekdays. I had 36 students in the Slavonic class that I taught.
English has it's place, as does Slavonic, Greek, and the other languages. The trick is to balance it according to the needs of the parish. People are not as dumb as they are made out to be. Remember please that Slavonic and Koine Greek are NOT the vernacular in Eastern Europe or Greece. They are liturgical languages. There is no liturgical English, the closest being what is commonly referred to as King James English. I believe it is the responsibility of the Church to bring the populace up to the Divine, rather than bring the Divine down to the populace.
Let me give you an example from another Orthodox Church. For years, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in America, was considered to be amongst the more liberal jurisdictions in it's outlook. Conversions were few, and it maintained it's populace base due to the strong ethnocentric tendencies of the Greek people. (I know, Father Anthony and Alice are chuckling over that understatement!)
Then a few years ago, Geronda Ephraim came from Athos, and started a series of STRICT Athonite monaasteries in the US. The last thing Americans need, according to the renovitionists. More ethnic claptrap. Well guess what? Geronda Ephraims monasteries are booming! I lost track of how many there are now. Americans from all walks of life are discovering Athonite Orthodoxy in it's fullness.
It seems to me that the BC Church has kept on giving in to the renovitionists, Latinizers and modernists over the years, resulting in chasing many traditionalist members away, and failing to attract new members, while some of the Orthodox Churches are becoming MORE traditional in their outlook. So the score card reads:

The Renovationists -
The Traditionalists +

We're building new churches, and you are selling yours. Who is succesful, and who is not?

As a side note, I know that some will say that I am gloating. I am not. I feel sorry that the Byzantine Catholic Church is being rent asunder by those who would abandon Her traditions. I welcomed the signs that I saw of Her starting to reclaim her past. As Deacon Robert can easily verify, look what happened to the OCA Churches in the Scranton area when the OCA bishops changed the Calendar. My prayer is that the BC Church learns from the errors that we made, and profits by them.

Alexandr [/QB][/QUOTE]

Dear Alexandr:

I'm a fairly recent convert to Eastern Christianity. I started attending an OCA mission in January or February of 2005. The reason why I chose this particular mission is that they say the Divine Liturgy is English. I was chrismated there on Pentecost of 2005. I have recently been received in the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh. I decided to do this because I became engaged to a lady who is a cradle Roman Catholic and she proposed that if I were willing to become Catholic, she would agree that we would worship together at an Eastern Catholic Church and that we will raise our children as Eastern Catholics. We were married three weeks ago. We would not attend a Church where the liturgies are primarily in a language other than English. I agree with you when you say "People are not as dumb as they are made out to be." My wife and I are certainly not dumb. Neither are we opposed to the use of some Church Slavonic. Some singing is done in Church Slavonic at our parish and our new priest is now incorporating the Slavonic "Slavu Isusu Christu," which I welcome, as I think most of the other parishioners do. However, if the liturgy were to be prayed in Church Slavonic, my wife and I would feel completely lost. I don't doubt that you're correct in saying that there are instances in which people are being drawn in because of the use of Church Slavonic. However, I think that needs to be balanced against the fact that there are also those who would be driven away by the use of a language for which they have no understanding. And I would add that I'm not a "renovationist," "latinizer," or "modernist." I'm one of quite a few former Protestants who felt spiritually impoverished in Protestantism, who saw great spiritual riches in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. That richness is not lost if the liturgy is prayed in English!
In peace,
Ryan

Dear Ryan,
First, my congratulations and a warm welcome - and best wishes for you and your wife!

On the language issue, it is possible (not certain, and this is not a promise, but possible) that as time goes by, you may discover that the older languages (such as Greek and Church-Slavonic) have something to offer. For now, my only suggestion is to keep an open mind on the subject,

with every blessing,

Father Serge

I certainly don't see any Orthodox churches being built in my area. Where is this?

You may be addressing this question to Alexandr, but I can add that in Southern Ontario, new Orthodox churches are always opening in the last 10 years in addition to a monastery or two.
Why don't you just check the parish listings of the various Orthodox jurisdictions for the USA to see where all the churches/parishes and monasteries are.

Ah, another country away. I see.

I could almost assuredly state that if I traveled to the state of Arizona, that there would be more churches being built than those that are experiencing a mass exodus just because Arizona is the most rapidly expanding state in our nation. My area of the United States is very old, and I'm sorry, I am just failing to see any growth here of Eastern Catholicism.

Sorry, I have to disagree again. I'm talking Pittsburgh PA Stormshadow! Byzantine Catholic Central! Little Kiev! The Capitol city of the rustbelt! Hardly the center of migration! But look in the ROCOR directory, and you will now see 4 ROCOR Churches within 25 miles of the Steel Triangle! The growth out west is even more remarkable. Take a peek at the ROCOR Church being built in Cincinatti Ohio, Protestant central.
http://www.kypost.com/2001/may/03/bobhay050301.html

Hay takes another path less taken
By Stephen Huba, Post staff reporter


No one could ever accuse Robert Hay of taking the easy way in either politics or life.
His positions on hot-button issues, from birth control to urban sprawl, have put him at the center of a succession of community controversies.

And despite his ''rising star'' status in Boone County politics, Hay is leaving office altogether when he steps down as a county commissioner in June.

But nothing can rival in difficulty his recent decision to join the Russian Orthodox Church.

He and his wife, Anita, home-school their six children and, until recently, attended a strict Baptist church in Cincinnati. His attraction to Orthodox Christianity has puzzled his peers, confused his family and baffled his Baptist friends, some of whom have been told to no longer associate with him.

Hay is accustomed to stormy waters in public life. As a member of the Northern Kentucky Independent District Health Department, he has fought to ban the distribution of contraceptives at public health clinics.

As a county commissioner, he once opposed tax breaks as a tool for encouraging economic development - a rare position for a Northern Kentucky politician. And he was an early and open supporter of the fundamentalist ministry, Answers in Genesis, when it sought county approval for a creationist museum in Boone County.

He also favored tighter control on urban sprawl during planning and zoning debates, even as other county officials sought compromise with developers pressing for less government regulation. Hay, however, made it clear he wasn't in government to compromise.

Now, Hay is withdrawing from public life. ''I just can't see myself in that realm,'' said Hay, 41, of Florence, a pharmacist by trade.

In February, Hay announced he wouldn't seek a second term as a Boone County commissioner, but then last month he accelerated his departure by saying he would resign effective June 30.

''The biggest reason is the upheaval that my conversion has had on my family,'' he said. ''They all love me still. But I need to bring them along in the faith now. I really need to give all my attention to their spiritual welfare.''

Hay was received into the church through the sacraments of baptism, chrismation (confirmation) and communion during the Easter vigil at St. George Russian Orthodox Church in Blue Ash, Ohio.

His family, though in attendance, did not become members with him. They are still trying to figure out what Orthodoxy is and why the man of the house decided to join.

''I've never really pushed anything with them,'' Hay said. ''Some of them are now making the sign of the cross during the services. The young ladies are now wearing head coverings in church. Little things are changing.''

People first noticed something was afoot last year when Hay started growing a beard. It is common in Russian Orthodoxy for men, both lay and clergy, to have beards.

But Hay's spiritual journey toward Orthodoxy goes back much further. Reared a nominal Baptist, he learned about the Orthodox Church through a pastor friend in the early 1990s. Hay was curious enough to research the topic on his own. He read writings from the early church fathers and studied church history. He began to see a disconnect between his experience as an independent Baptist and the 2,000-year history of institutional Christianity.

''The Orthodox - very humbly but very assuredly - believe themselves to have maintained that deposit (of faith) that St. Jude says was once delivered to the saints,'' he said. ''That's a fantastic claim. Think about it: two millennia of faithfulness.''

Hay was impressed, but he didn't know what to do with his newfound knowledge until he visited St. George's in November 1999, and something clicked. His intellectual journey became a journey of the heart.

The parish priest, the Rev. Paul Bassett, himself a convert, encouraged Hay to go slow.

''He couldn't answer all of my Protestant-inspired questions, but he tried awfully hard to,'' said Hay, who also makes regular pilgrimages to a Russian Orthodox monastery near Huntington, W.Va. He considers a monk there, the Rev. Alexey Young, his ''spiritual father.''

St. George's is part of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, one of three branches of Russian Orthodoxy in the United States. Known by the acronym ROCOR, the church comprises Russian emigres, first-generation Russian Americans, and converts to Orthodoxy. Its worship services are celebrated mostly in Slavonic, a centuries-old liturgical language that many Russians no longer understand.

Hay is part of a small but significant wave of Protestants who have converted to Orthodoxy since the 1980s, seeking spiritual discipline, stability and a historic connection with early Christianity.

Hay said he was inspired by the stories of Russian Christians who persevered under 75 years of atheistic communism.

''I regard it as a bit of humor on the part of God, that he would have brought salvation to me via this group of people who I had grown up to distrust, to hate,'' he said. ''If it was Russian, it was Soviet, it was communist, it was bad.''

Hay's voice wavers with emotion when he talks about the millions of Russian Christians - Orthodox and non-Orthodox - who were exiled, persecuted and killed under Soviet communism.

Hay said he, too, has had to count the cost to become Orthodox.

Hay said his former church, Bethel Baptist Temple in northeast Cincinnati, shunned him when it learned of his decision to convert. He said the church's leadership called him a heretic from the pulpit and told members not to have anything to do with him.

''They gave inaccurate information about Orthodoxy, ridiculed icons and holy tradition, and gave out publicly information I had confided to them,'' he said.

The Rev. Larry Cornett, senior pastor of Bethel Baptist Temple, would not comment except to say, ''We love Robert and his family very much. We wish them the very best.''

''I realized that there would be some reaction,'' said Hay, ''but I never anticipated being called a heretic.''

Hay said church leaders also took him to Indianapolis to see a ''biblical counselor,'' who, at the end of their meeting, said Hay was the ''worst case of deception he had ever seen.''

But not everyone's reaction has been negative.

''Some people have said, 'You're more laid back,' Hay said. ''I feel that I'm more at peace now than I've ever been.''

Keep in mind, this is ROCOR. Heavy Russian. Heavy Slavonic. No pews. Cover your head. 3 hour Sunday Liturgy. All Night Vigil Saturday night. Yet so many Baptists are joining, that they are building an absolutely huge Church, one of the biggest in North America. Your argument is getting weaker...

Alexandr

First of all my last post was directed towards the one mentioning Ontario. And again, I don't see ANY building of orthodox churches here in the northeast.
So, what's up here?

OK - so what are you doing about it -- meaning building of Orthodox Churches ?- and the place for any response is in the Evangelisation Forum - not this one .

This Forum is specifically for discussion on the topic as described here

I think Stormshadow previously mentioned an EC affiliation. This probably wasn't the best thread to start out on. Emotions and rhetoric tend to run a little high right now. I hope Stormshadow is able to regroup and rejoin us.

We can see the thread drift:
Using Slavonic won't be attractive to newcomers.

Oh, yeah. Well the Orthodox are using it and they're booming.

Where are they booming? I don't see it.

In Ontario.

Another country?

And right where you are, too.

I don't see it.

What are you doing about it? ps: Don't discuss this here.

-Not exactly the most attractive welcome to a newcomer.

We seem to be getting off on a wild tangent here. Questions and possible solutions regarding the building of churches or missions should be started as a new thread in the Evangelization Forum. I am also going to remind posters about the way they post and respond to posts here. The limits of charity are being stretched.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

I attended a church for a while where they were adamant that everything be in English, to the point that even the few responses that were given in different languages were stopped. I understand why the felt this way, but it didn�t work for me.

Personally speaking, I like what my parish does, and that is mix Slavonic in with the liturgy in order to create a balance of the history of the church with the need to exist in its present and future situation. I mentioned before that in our Sunday School the children are also taught prayers in both Slavonic and English. So this convert is happy with that situation. We had approximately four hymns in Slavonic yesterday, including the Cherubic Hymn which to me just doesn�t sound the same in English.

One thing I have seen consistently across all converts is that they are interested in liturgical fullness, and that the beauty and majesty of the liturgy is often what brought them in. It is truly I believe the great evangelical tool of Eastern Christianity. Many I have talked to have been put off the revising, modernizing trends and agendas of their former churches. I think people should consider not only what it is that the current people in the chairs or pews will or must accept, but what will bring people from the outside in.

Also, I know this is a side topic, but there are Orthodox churches being built in the NE (though sadly of course many are also struggling). Just not at the same pace as places like the South or West.

http://www.acrod.org/music/Prostopinije_4.mp3

I thought this might be a nice compromise.
(Actually, listening to Prostopenije Paschal music always brings a tear to my eye)

Alexandr

You might try a CD of the Old Ritualists - there are several available, including one of the Divine Liturgy sung by a nice trio.

Father Serge

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Very nice remdition.
Correct me if I am wrong but is this not the voice
of o Mitrat Roman Galadza from St Elias in Brampton? Some how it sounds so familiar!

Z Bohom
Unworthy Nycholaij

PS Father Serge, youmentioned a CD by the OLd Ritualists. Where and how does one obtain the CD?

For those in North America, the best source for the Old-'Ritualist Divine Liturgy CD is probably Vladimir Morosan's website.

Fr. Serge

That would be Musica Russica .

Ребята, давайте жить дружно.

I love languages. I am an interpreter by profession. I was not raised using Church Slavonic. In fact, I was attracted initially to a Byzantine Catholic parish that held all their services in English. I think I consider myself fairly traditional on most issues. But, I don't think that preferring the Liturgy in English puts me on the side of "revisionists."

I can understand why some people feel strongly on this issue and I don't want to debate the points pro and con. However, if I'm in an area that has two parishes: one that does the services in the language of the people it is trying to evangelize and the other which seeks to retain a liturgical language that is not used afterwards during the coffee hour, I will throw my lot in with the one that is actively seeking to evangelize in the language of the local people.

There would be little or no point in an effort to impose Churchh-Slavonic on anyone (it was never a language used for coffee-hour conversations in the first place), except on scholars who need it in order to read liturgical books with understanding.

On the other hand, there is also little or no point in trying to deprive people who want Church-Slavonic of that interesting language. There are apt to be people around who want Church-Slavonic (in some things) for the foreseeable future.

So it's best to live and let live - or, better still, everyone should learn Irish!

Father Serge