The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog, JanSorman, Icons
5654 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 163 guests, and 186 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,865
Posts412,714
Members5,654
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21130 11/18/05 05:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 58
anamchristi Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 58

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21131 11/18/05 06:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
T
Theist Gal Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Good! Glad to see some sense being injected into the discussion.

It's always bothered me to hear Catholics advocating various forms of "creationism" and quoting from books written by Seventh-Day Adventists (George Price, et al) - and ignoring or downplaying what Catholic scientists and theologians have said on the subject!

That doesn't mean going along with the secular scientists who insist that if evolution is true, there is no God. We should certainly protest whenever that opinion is presented as fact. But evolution, in and of itself, is nothing to be scared of.

Some of the best Christians I know are descended from ape-like creatures (and look it, too wink )!

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21132 11/18/05 07:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 648
domilsean Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member
Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 648
Theist,

I brought this up on a Latin forum and the response I got was "What do you expect? He's a jesuit!"

Darn SSPX folks are NUTS! Sorry anyone who loves SSPX.

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21133 11/18/05 07:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 828
Myles Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 828
The problem I see here is the secular media's attempt to make 'intelligent design' mean creationism and to make evolution mean materialism. This is fallacious and improper journalism. The Holy See as the article infers by quoting Papa Bene does support the fact that the Universe is intelligently designed (how could it not??) However, the Catholic reading of Sacred Scripture is anything but fundamentalist.

The deliberate misreporting of the words of men like Papa Ratzi and Cardinal Shonborn is being done to make the Church look foolhardy and it is yet another example of the secularist agenda at work. The secularist press continuously ignore the fact that natural selection's co-author Alfred Russel Wallace believed in a Creator God and put a neo-Darwinist slant on everything. They are attempting to place a false divide between faith and reason along the lines condemned by John Paul the Great's encyclical 'fides et ratio'.

The media should make an effort to use correct and exact language when reporting these stories instead of pushing their irreligious agenda.


"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21134 11/18/05 07:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
T
Theist Gal Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
Another thing that irritates me is: "creation" is NOT incompatible with "evolution". There's no reason why you can't believe that God created the universe, and used evolution as a tool to develop it.

Creationists give creation a bad name. wink

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21135 11/18/05 11:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
V
Vito Offline
Member
Offline
Member
V
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
It's called the "Gingrich" approach. Use negative words to describe someone or something you don't like and eventually people believe it.

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21136 11/19/05 12:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Quote
Myles wrote:
The problem I see here is the secular media's attempt to make 'intelligent design' mean creationism and to make evolution mean materialism.
Myles has cut to the core of the issue. “Intelligent Design” at its roots is simply the belief that the universe had a designer who guided that design with purpose. The media seems to like to morph the simple idea of an intelligent designer into the worst of the most fundamental Biblical Genesis literalists. My guess is that the good Father Coyne has probably obtained his understanding of “intelligent design” from the media and is responding in that light. The problem is the extreme at both ends. The development of the “Intelligent Design Movement” (if I can call it that) seems to be rooted in a response to the silly notion that God has no place in science. It is certainly possible for someone to affirm a belief in an Intelligent Designer while at the same time he or she is a good scientist.

Christians are creationists (we believe that God created the heavens and the earth). The Book of Genesis is a true account of creation yet it is not a scientific account of creation.

Christians believe in intelligent design. God has a purpose for everything.

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21137 11/19/05 12:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
T
Theist Gal Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,134
With all due respect, Administrator, you can't hold the secular media completely responsible for that. "Creationists" themselves have co-opted the "Intelligent Design" label to describe their belief in a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21138 11/19/05 01:17 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Quote
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
With all due respect, [b]Administrator, you can't hold the secular media completely responsible for that. "Creationists" themselves have co-opted the "Intelligent Design" label to describe their belief in a literal interpretation of Genesis. [/b]
No where in my post did I state (or even imply) that the secular media was completely responsible for the idea that “Intelligent Design” equates to the Evangelical Christian “Genesis fundamentalism”.

Nor did I in anyway give a pass to the “Genesis fundamentalists”.

Might I respectfully suggest that you read my post again?

Admin biggrin

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21139 11/19/05 01:22 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 674
nicholas Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 674
Quote
Originally posted by Administrator:


Christians believe in intelligent design.
With respect Administrator,

I've heard different spokesmen on the radio (some of those protestant stations) state quite different definitions for exactly what they mean by 'intelligent design'.

I'm not sure

a. the term has been finally defined
b. it has been determined what the 'extended' philosophies and agendas of the movement are.

I think to state that "Christians believe" in this, is an overstatement.

I am interested in the theory, it may be a helpful way to dialogue with the current atheistic scholarly community.

I'm not sure that the 'intelligent design' movement is a simple a point ("that the universe had a designer who guided the universe with purpose").

Of course we believe that God created the universe, but there is something else involved here, and the doctrine of what we use to call "God's providence" is anything but simple.

Before completely endorsing the movement, I think it needs to define itself better.

Nick

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21140 11/19/05 01:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,540
Nick,

Thank you for your post. From what I have read in the Catholic press (including papers like NCR and magazines like “Touchstone” and “First Things”) the term “intelligent design” is very wide-encompassing. I do acknowledge and realize that some Evangelical Protestants would corner the term and equate it to a literal interpretation of Genesis. Yet, just like I don’t surrender the term “Christian” to them and allow it to equate to “Evangelical” I don’t surrender the term “intelligent design” and allow it to equate to “Genesis fundamentalism”. Neither, it seems, do those in the Catholic Church who have addressed this issue since some provide a very well reasoned Catholic perspective to intelligent design.

As I pointed out earlier, the problem is with those who are extremists. I don’t think it is for us to wait for the movement to better define itself. I think it is for us to voice our opinion on this matter to offer a fully Catholic and Orthodox perspective that is respectful of both theology and science. If we proactively presented a very balance approach to intelligent design we would not have to be reactive to the fundamentalists on either side of this issue.

Admin biggrin

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21141 11/19/05 03:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
ebed melech Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Quote
Originally posted by Theist Gal:
Good! Glad to see some sense being injected into the discussion...But evolution, in and of itself, is nothing to be scared of.
Since the eugenics movement and National Socialism were spawned out of Darwin's pet theories brought to their natural conclusion, I'd say there is much to be scared of...still. (Just ask the Terri Schiavo's of the world...)

Here's a good (if expensive) read on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/14...55&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Book Description from Amazon:

From Darwin to Hitler elucidates the evolutionary impact Darwinism had on ethics and morality. Weikart demonstrates that many leading Darwinian biologists and social thinkers in Germany believed that Darwinism overturned traditional Judeo-Christian and Enlightenment ethics, especially the view that human life is sacred. Many of these thinkers supported moral relativism, yet simultaneously exalted evolutionary "fitness" (especially intelligence and health) as the highest arbiter of morality. Darwinism played a key role in the rise not only of eugenics, but also euthanasia, infanticide, abortion, and racial extermination. This thinking had its biggest impact on Germany, since Hitler built his view of ethics on Darwinian principles, not on nihilism as popularly believed.

I'm no fundamentalist, but I'm not inclined to spurn the beliefs of others for thousands of years in deference to the purported "sense" of modern darwinist orthodoxies.

Gordo

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21142 11/19/05 04:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Z
Zenovia Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Z
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,440
Dear Vito:

"It's called the "Gingrich" approach. Use negative words to describe someone or something you don't like and eventually people believe it."

I say:

But Gingrich isn't a Democrat. Isn't denigrating others a trait of the Democrats?

Zenovia

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21143 11/19/05 04:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Brian Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,716
Quote
Originally posted by Zenovia:
Dear Vito:

"It's called the "Gingrich" approach. Use negative words to describe someone or something you don't like and eventually people believe it."

I say:

But Gingrich isn't a Democrat. Isn't denigrating others a trait of the Democrats?

Zenovia
Oh Zenovia!!!!! That has been a trait of political discourse of all parties of every persuasion since politics began! Come now!! There is NO political party which is "God's Party"

Re: Vatican Official Refutes Intelligent Design #21144 11/19/05 04:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
ebed melech Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
Quote
Originally posted by Brian:
Oh Zenovia!!!!! That has been a trait of political discourse of all parties of every persuasion since politics began! Come now!! There is NO political party which is "God's Party" [/QB][/QUOTE]

But some parties are more God's party than others! :p

And I'm still waiting for the names of those racist Dems who went Republican, Brian! biggrin

Gordo

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3