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#214014 - 11/16/06 09:30 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Irish Melkite]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
Ad polish Armenians, they are Armenian Catholics, who were in union with Rome since XVI or XVII century. Before II World War it was in poland one archidiocese for Armenians, and now is only Ordinariate (it is two priests who can celebrate in Armenian rite ks. Tadeusz Isakowicz Zaleski and ks. Artur Awdalian) it is only one parish in Gliwice and two "duszpasterstwa" for north Poland ks. Artur Awdalian, and for south poland ks. Tadeusz Isakowicz Zaleski. It was one more priest who were in Gliwice but one or two years ago he stole some armenians property and ran away.
Ad Kostom&#322;oty. I dont't know whitch recension the have got (can someone explain me what is recension and whats is diferent between Great and Little Russian Recension?) I know only that they have got synodal bizantian slavian rite same as in Polish Orthodox Church. More heer http://www.kostomloty-parafia-unicka.siedlce.opoka.org.pl/obrzadek_e.htm
I dont't know about payrishes who want to restore polish bizantine rite (I don't think that this rite had ever exist).
In Poland is in Catholic Church only four rites
-roman (90% of all population in Poland)
-bizantia ukrainian (two eparchies 200 tys. faithfuls)
-armenian (5 tys)
-neo - uniate (200 people)
In Poland are 500tys. orthodoxes, and 1000 old beliviers (bezpopowcy)
P.S. Sorry for poor English.

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#214015 - 11/16/06 09:37 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
Ad. Armenians in Gda&#324;sk were armenian priest but he died. He celebrated in lwowian armenian rite (this rite were latinesed, and had a lot of polish language). Ks. Awdalian and ks. Zaleski are biritualans, two weeks ago a permission from Vatican to celebrate in armenian rite ended for ks. Zaleski, and he didn't get a new permission, so it was threat that polish Armenians will go to Armeniana Apostolic Church, but kard. Glemp turned to Vatican one more time for permission for ks. Zaleski.

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#214022 - 11/16/06 11:23 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Saint Nicetas the Martyr Church in Kostomloty is the only surviving Greek-Catholic parish of the Eparchy of Kholm; the jurisdiction of a Latin bishop over this parish is extraordinary and objectionable. The Eparchy of Kholm never died; after it was outlawed on Tsarist territory in 1875 there remained one parish of the Eparchy in Cracow, then in Austrian territory, where the Tsar's decrees had no application. After World War I a good number of parishes in the Eparchy of Kholm returned to Catholic communion, despite strenuous Polish opposition. The Polish bishops succeeded in blocking the appointment of a Greek-Catholic Bishop of Kholm and instead had the Greek-Catholic parishes placed under Latin bishops - this was one of the conditions of the "neo-Uniate" scheme. Eventually, Pope Pius XI succeeded in appointing Blessed Nicholas (Charnetsky) as Apostolic Visitor for these parishes, despite further Polish opposition. [His signature appears in the record books of Saint Nicetas parish.] When World War II began, Bishop Nicholas was made Exarch; Pope Pius XiI confirmed this appointment.

After the end of World War II and the imposition of new bouundaries on Poland, the majority of the neo-Uniate parishes were in what became Soviet territory. Fourteen parishes remained in Poland. Thirteen of them, under extreme pressure from the Polish bishops, either accepted the Latin Rite or gave up on the whole project and joined the Polish Orthodox Church. Only Saint Nicetas in Kostomloty remained, largely through the heroism of Father Alexander Prylutsky of most holy memory.

The liturgical practice of Saint Nicetas parish coforms to the Nikonian usage. The day-to-day language of the parish is Ukrainian with a distinct tinge of Belarusian and Polish.

Through the hospitality of Father Roman Pietka, I have been privileged to visit the parish several times - among other things it is an astonishing cultural survival. The Polish bishops again tried to suppress it after Vatican II, but Paul VI personally decided that the parish could and should continue. Since then, things have been reasonably peaceful.

Father Serge

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#214129 - 11/17/06 05:15 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Irish Melkite Offline

Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8416
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:
(can someone explain me what is recension and whats is diferent between Great and Little Russian Recension?)


Andrzej and Father Serge,

Thank you both for the information.

Andrzej,

The Great Russian usage or rescension is the liturgical form used by the Byzantine Russians; the Little Russian is that used by the Byzantine Ruthenians and Ukrainians. See the early posts in this thread for a list of which Churches use which. By Father Serge's remarks (referring to Nikonian usage), this parish apparently serves according to the Great Russian rescension.

I find it curious that the Cardinal is having to intercede for the Armenians, given that the Armenian Patriarchate has an Ordinariate of its own for Eastern Europe - which would have led me to think that they would have looked out for the interests of their own faithful.

Father Serge,

To your mind, to which Eparchy would the neo-Uniate parish now rightfully be ascribed, as the only extant Eparchy of Kholm is that of the UGCC, I believe.

Many years,

Neil


Edited by Irish Melkite (11/17/06 05:24 AM)
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#214130 - 11/17/06 07:10 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Irish Melkite]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
A Niall, a chara,

Logicaly, I suppose, the Kostomloty parish of St. Nicetas the Martyr should be assigned to the Metropolitan of Warsaw and Peremyshl' - Kostomloty is not hard to reach from Warsaw (one drives straight east on the highway to Moscow, turns south just before the border with Belarus, and about 7 miles south of the highway is Kostomloty, provided only that one knows exactly where to look).

In an ideal world, it would be nice to see the Eparchy of Kholm restored for the Greek-Catholics of north-eastern Poland, but the Poles are not about to swallow that (the cathedral in Kholm is now used by the Polish Roman Catholics). There are communities of Greek-Catholics in places like Bialystok who certainly want parishes (the distances people travel to come to Kostomloty on feast days are often amazing).

le gach beannacht,

Fr. Serge

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#214143 - 11/17/06 09:53 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
Irish Melkite thank you for your answer.
I have got untypical question, but can someone tell me whats is name of Kholm in polish, because I don't know about which city are you talking.

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#214145 - 11/17/06 10:00 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
KO63AP Offline
Member

Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ѳулκαндρα
Andrzej,

In Polish it is Che&#322;m, in Ukrainian &#1061;&#1086;&#1083;&#1084; .

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#214162 - 11/17/06 12:05 PM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: KO63AP]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
Thank you! Now I know about wchih city you are talking!
Maybe it is answer on this forum for my new question, but I haven't got enough time to search. Did any of Eastern Catholic Churches make changes after the Vaticanum II in their Liturgy?

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#216539 - 12/10/06 04:39 PM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
I want to ask one more question about Ruthenian Catholic Church.
Are eparchies of this church in America subjected to Mukaczew Eparchy, or they are sui iuris?
What is the status of Czech Greekcatholic Church?

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#216579 - 12/11/06 01:39 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
Wondering Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1407
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Andrzej
I want to ask one more question about Ruthenian Catholic Church.
Are eparchies of this church in America subjected to Mukaczew Eparchy, or they are sui iuris?

The Ruthenians comprise their own church sui iuris. From their website:

The Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh was established as the Exarchate of Pittsburgh in 1924. This Exarchate expanded to become the Eparchy of Pittsburgh and the Eparchy of Passaic in 1963.

Full status as a Metropolitan Church was granted in 1969 with the designation of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the Eparchy of Passaic, the Eparchy of Parma and, later, the Eparchy of Van Nuys.

The Metropolitan Church is governed by the Council of Hierarchs comprised of the Metropolitan Archbishop and the bishops of each of the eparchies.

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#216582 - 12/11/06 05:33 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Irish Melkite]
harmon3110 Offline
Grateful
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 3446
Loc: Ohio, USA
Neil,

What a wonderful discussion you have authored ! This is a real resource ! I hope it is posted somewhere online besides this thread, so it will be easily available to those who are looking for more information about the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Merry Christmas !

-- John

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#216595 - 12/11/06 09:44 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Wondering]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
Originally Posted By: Wondering
Originally Posted By: Andrzej
I want to ask one more question about Ruthenian Catholic Church.
Are eparchies of this church in America subjected to Mukaczew Eparchy, or they are sui iuris?

The Ruthenians comprise their own church sui iuris. From their website:

The Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh was established as the Exarchate of Pittsburgh in 1924. This Exarchate expanded to become the Eparchy of Pittsburgh and the Eparchy of Passaic in 1963.

Full status as a Metropolitan Church was granted in 1969 with the designation of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the Eparchy of Passaic, the Eparchy of Parma and, later, the Eparchy of Van Nuys.

The Metropolitan Church is governed by the Council of Hierarchs comprised of the Metropolitan Archbishop and the bishops of each of the eparchies.

So the Ruthenians in USA are independent of Mukaczew eparchy, officially?

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#216601 - 12/11/06 10:52 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Andrzej]
Wondering Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1407
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Andrzej
So the Ruthenians in USA are independent of Mukaczew eparchy, officially?

Yes, they are officially independent. The highest raking hierarch for the Ruthenians in the United States is the Metropolitan. The only one above him is, IIRC, the Congregation for the Oriental Churches in Rome.

They are also separate and distinct from the Ukrainians in the United States.

In other countries, this is not the case.

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#216605 - 12/11/06 11:24 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Wondering]
Andrzej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Poland
So what is official name of Ruthenian Church in USA?
And what status have got Czech Greekcatholic. Are they to Mukaczew Eparchy or are they independent?

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#217164 - 12/18/06 05:16 AM Re: Churches & Rites [Re: Wondering]
Irish Melkite Offline

Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8416
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Wondering
Originally Posted By: Andrzej
So the Ruthenians in USA are independent of Mukaczew eparchy, officially?

Yes, they are officially independent. The highest raking hierarch for the Ruthenians in the United States is the Metropolitan. The only one above him is, IIRC, the Congregation for the Oriental Churches in Rome.

They are also separate and distinct from the Ukrainians in the United States.

In other countries, this is not the case.


I'm not sure what Wondering meant by the final sentence but the Ruthenians have 2 distinct sui iuris jurisdictions - (1)the Metropolia of Pittsburgh with its 3 suffragn Eparchies and (2) the Eparchy of Mukachevo.

The Apostolic Exarchate for the Czech Greek-Catholics is also a Ruthenian jurisdiction but is directly dependent on Rome, as the authority of the Mukachevo Eparchy does not extend beyond its own canonical borders (that is true of all eparchial-level Churches sui iuris). Also, all Apostolic Exarchates are erected by and under the authority of Rome.

If, by his last sentence, Wondering was suggesting that there is some place in which Ruthenians are not separate and distinct from Ukrainians, that is incorrect. The only place in which Ruthenians are subject to a Church sui iuris other than their own is Canada, where the pastoral care of Ruthenians is given over to the Eparchy of Saints Cyril & Methodius in Toronto of the Slovaks.

To answer your question, Andrzej, the official name of the Ruthenian Church in the US is the "Byzantine Catholic Church in America" (I believe that is the current usage).

Many years,

Neil


Edited by Irish Melkite (12/18/06 05:20 AM)
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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