www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Exiting the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church

My point exactly! It would be like telling a Scot he's Irish, or a Sicilian he's Italian..Don't EVER do it!!!

My ethnic identity means a great deal to me - but if faced with a choice between the Church and the Irish identity, the Church will win.

A matter of history - the separation in the USA between the Greek Catholic from Austria and the Greek Catholics from Hungary occurred because the Hungarian government intervened and fomented the bigotry that is still around.

A practical suggestion - perhaps we could start accumulating in list of Greek Catholic parishes in various places where things are dependably done well (regardless of jurisdiction, but noting the language mix).

Finally: such parishes do not happen by accident. Someone makes them happen, often with pain, tears and patient effort. Saint Nicholas Church, Toronto, was largely due to the patient work of Father Bohdan Lipsky of blessed memory. He in turn attracted several seminarians, who were eventually ordained; one of them was Father Roman Galadza, who went on to found Saint Elias parish, which eventually built the current magnificent church, after beginning in an RC gymnasium. Holy Transfiguration in Virginia began in a one-car garage.

Father Serge

Amen, Father. And there is no reason why a parish that celebrates with Prostopinje could not be in the same jurisdiction as one that celebrates in Galician. I believe the OCA has a similar model, no?

Twould be a tragedy if the Rusyns end up proudly waving their ethnic flag on a sinking ecclesiatical ship. Like it or not, they need the Ukrainians. And the Ukrainians need them as well. (In part because they need to commit to using English in English-speaking countries, unless the majority of their parishioners are recent immigrants.)

Part of the issue, I believe, is that the Rusyns do not want to be called "Ukrainians". So why not have the Ukrainians drop the title from their Church and adopt "Kyivian"?


I think that is a brilliant suggestion. It could be a list of parishes that are committed to an authentic form of Orthodox Catholic Mission. I think many people know the larger ones...we would have to develop some common criteria for the "good Greek-Catholic pastoral housekeeping seal of approval".

Gordo

As has been pointed out so many numerous times, the historical conditions precipitating the sad separation after the death of Kyr Soter have long since faded, as have many parishes - either closing or members leaving (for various reasons, not just RCs or Orthodox). Our current parish has persons of Ukrainian, Romanian, Russian, Belarusin, Slovak, Hungarian, and diverse other ethnic origins; we even have one Malankarese family now.

It is time for Ruthenian (using that in the historical larger sense, as in the Ordo) Greco-Catholics to cease the division and move towards unity in a Patriarchal Church worldwide.

I think two Patriarchates, one for the Greek usage (already in place with the Melkites) and one for Slavic usage (already in place for the UGCC) is a sensible way forward. I think the move of the Patriarchal see to Kyiv begins the move away from a more ethnic Ukrainian to a more universal Kyivan Greco-Catholic Church (the name Bishop Losten suggested).

The most prudent thing at this time, in my opinion, is to not force the New Liturgy either way; if some parishes actually want it (I don't see why, but that is besides the point), make it optional along with the other Ruthenian (again in the larger sense of the term) Liturgikons approved by Rome.

If the revisionists truly feel the New Liturgy is the best text out there, then optional implementation should prove that out in the long run.
FDD

We Ukrainians and Ruthenians are so closely related that we must see ourselves as one family and one church. The two archeparchies - Philadelphia and Pittsburgh - are so unnecessary. Let's worship together under the title of Kyivan Catholic Church and once and for all drop the Ukrainian and Ruthenian "stuff".
Please don't start throwing pyrohy at me, I'm serious about reunification. Our Lord asks that all may be one, so let's be true Christians and follow His teaching.

We should be pooling our resources to evangelize the world.

Why have so many Greek Catholic seminaries out east and none in the midwest or west? How about a seminary in Chicagoland tied to Transfiguration College?

William Wallace to Robert the Bruce in Braveheart

Greco-Catholics have a number of sparsely filled seminaries out East. Fill them! Where is it written that those who live the 'west' can't go to a seminary 'east'? By your logic, no one in the US should go to seminary in Europe (e.g. Rome).

Send your candidates out East, and found monasteries in the West!

Pseudo-Athanasius,

It would pain you to admit that the fact that anyone would have to move just to experience a full liturgy is the serious problem. All of our churches should have full liturgies, don't you agree?

It would pain you to admit that nearly every priest that comes out of our seminary has never experienced a full liturgy unless he took it upon himself to go and find the needle in the haystack church that does a full liturgy. Don't you see a problem here?

I'm assuming that you attend Annunciation where Father Loya celebrates. If and when (and I truly hope that it is not soon)Father Loya is not there anymore, what would preclude the new priest from celebrating the way 90% of the other parishes celebrate (the chopped up liturgy)? Especially if this new liturgy is official, what leg will you have to stand on if the new priest says, too bad, the chopped up liturgy is how it is. Don't you see this was the point of the thread started by MC that asked about what going on in Aliquippa, where Father Elias had been doing a full liturgy and many are wondering if that will now change or if that has changed?

But there is one question I'd love to hear your answer on:

who has changed and revised more throughout the centuries:

a)The Catholic Church
b)The Orthodox Church

a or b?

Monomakh

Perhaps you could share with us where and when Canon XX of the First Ecumenical Council was 'reformed'.

btw, 'Reformed' sounds like such a progressive word doesn't it. Kind of masks what's really going on.

Monomakh

Diak,

I'm with you and don't take what I'm going to write as being confrontational.

If the UGCC is so repectful of Tradition, then maybe they'll do something about St. John's in Lorain, OH. Maybe I'll drive out there this Sunday with my camera and send the UGCC synod photos of the altar girls who are on the altar with short vestments on so that their bare legs stick out for all to see during processions. We've gone from women having head coverings to altar girls with short vestments and bare legs in a less than two generations. What do you think their reaction would be?

Monomakh

Anyone who wants to throw pyrohy at me is quite welcome to do so - I prefer them made with cabbage (as part of the main course) or with various sorts of fruits (cherries, blueberries, what-have-you) for dessert. In the latter case, I make an excellent sauce for them. Remember to use sweet butter - salt is not much good in desserts.

Father Serge

I'm not taking at all as confrontational - unfortunately every Church has its "problem children". The subject of female servers even in the Orthodox church has also come up occasionally as well on this Forum.

I still think the positives of an overall larger Greco-Catholic union within a Patriarchal church outweigh the negatives.
FDD

Diak,

If I gave the illusion that I'm not in favor of an overall Greco-Catholic union, let me be clear. An overall Greco-Catholic union that follows Tradition is exactly what needs to take place.

It is interesting to note that the UGCC has the best of both worlds. What I mean is that you'll never find as Traditional as a church in the Greek Catholic world as St. Elias in Brampton, Ontario. I visited this past summer and it is something to see (however it spoils you and leaves you shaking your head when you attend back home.)

However, the most Latinized churches that I've seen today are UGCC. St. John's in Lorain is one. St. Andrew's in Parma is infamous for recited liturgies. I can't even remember hearing a rumour of Vespers even taking place at a UGCC parish in Ohio.

It seems that there are very few UGCC parishes in the US that are Traditional. I'm sure there are some, but I've not seen them. But in Canada there are, I've been to Ukraine a couple of times and seen them there as well. I think that Cathy was referring to what she's seen in this country, but I can't speak for her. I always get a kick out of the look on peoples faces when I break the news to them that the vast majority of Greek Catholics celebrate on the Julian Calendar. They want to so bad to argue about it, but several million Ukes in Ukraine would beg to differ.

I think in some cases when we (and I mean we as the whole board) talk about the UGCC we have to be specific as to the UGCC in the US or outside the US.

Monomakh

Again, every church has its problem children. Our local parishes (Ruthenian and Ukrainian) fifteen years ago were the exact opposite of the scenario you describe - the Ruthenian with the recited liturgy, abbreviated litanies, etc. and the Ukrainian with everything sung and the fuller celebration. That is largely dependent, as many things, on the pastor.
FDD