THIS IS THE REVISED LITURGY STRAIGHT FRO...URGY THIS IS IT
Yes, it is a weekday liturgy. The only difference between Sunday/Feastdays and regular weekdays are antiphons.
This is reposted to show what this whole Revised Divine Liturgy sub-forum is about. THIS IS THE REAL DEAL. This is what everyone has been talking about. It has been posted before, but here it is again. Enjoy. According to a person who was present at the liturgy this text came from, this Liturgy WAS RECORDED in order to be distributed for parish educational purposes.
This isn't some make-believe link, this is real, this is straight from Sts. Cyril and Methodius Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Seminary Chapel. Topping off this revelation would be the Priest's book, with the prayers of the deacon and the priest. You probably won't have to wait to long to see what is linked above in a hardcover pew book unless you act fast and act now. In fact, from a solid source, the pew books are already printed awaiting distribution.

fait accompli...

Hungariacertezei

The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!

This is the same thing that was posted here a few weeks ago. The UKRAINIAN liturgy...

This has nothing to do with the RUTHENIAN revision.

Link to that closed thread on which I said this:

I would like to retract my last post in this thread. It's not the same link that I thought it was. The one from a few weeks ago WAS the Ukrainian liturgy. This one isn't.

I also apologize. I did not follow the link when it said it had previously been posted.

This cannot be the final approved version. It still contains the formula of "whom God loves" in commemorating one's Bishop. I have been told that we are now back to the formula "our God-loving Bishop".

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

It also omits a great deal of material that was in the text used at the Seminary - including last September, the event referred to in the original post.

It is certainly similar to part of what was taught at the MCI, but much is missing and a fair number of changes have been made since that booklet or whatever was created.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Dear Jeff,

If many changes have been made, what becomes of the much-vaunted Vatican approval? What, exactly, did they approve? Have they approved the changes? Do we need to resubmit the whole thing?

Did His Holiness Benedict XVI approve the new Liturgy?

Dear Pseudo-Athanasius,

The wording "our bishop N., whom God loves", was changed back to the old wording more than a year ago (as mentioned on here at the time, as I recall). Since then, as far as I can tell from the materials used at the Cantor Institute, a number of typos have been corrected, some of the music has been adjusted based on experience with its use, and so on; those are the "many changes" I was referring to. I doubt that either sort of change would have required further approval from Rome.

As far as the actual approvals from Rome, I am hopeful that the correspondence will be published if/when the new liturgical materials are promulgated, as that would likely lay some questions to rest.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Considering the pew books are already printed and await distribution... how would there be turning back? All the money and resources already used logically wouldn't be thrown away with not selling the new pew books to the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parishes. This is a scenario where it already HAS HAPPENED. It just hasn't been distributed to your parish yet. It's already to go, it just needs to be delivered (it's printed and hard-bound).
Let me say this again, in caps THIS NEW LITURGY HAS HAPPENED, IT IS PRINTED AND READY TO BE DISTRIBUTED. YOU JUST HAVEN'T RECEIVED IT AT THE PARISH LEVEL YET.

Whether the books are already printed or not is irrelevant.

I do not know how finances were allocated or spent for this boondoggle. But even if the cost exceeds $1 or $2 million the decision on whether to implement it can only be properly made upon merit. Basic scholarship (that posted here and published elsewhere) has demonstrated that the proposed revisions to the liturgy (esp. rubrics) and the style of translation (esp. the exclusive "inclusive languge") are incorrect. The proposed "product" strays greatly from our official books. It is always best to stop a bad project and accept the monies spent as lost. It is never good to do something bad just because one has spent money on it. Promulgating incorrect books simply because the money has been spent is simply not logical.

Think about it. Have you ever started to paint a room and then realized that there was something wrong with the paint (bad quality, wrong color, etc)? Would you continue to paint your house with bad paint just because you already paid for it and cannot return it (because it was a custom paint)? No. You would dispose of the paint and start again with quality paint. You would consider the money you spent on the custom paint to be an expensive lesion.

Turning back to what is official and correct is easily accomplished.

Here's a straightforward approach - a pastoral letter from the hierarchs on Liturgy. It could contain several elements: 1) a simple endorsement and promulgation of the official books as directed by Rome in 1941 and reaffirmed in 1953 and 1996 (in various letters and instructions) (much like what the UGCC Synod just did), 2) an exhortation to all clergy to begin embracing the official Liturgy using the 1964 Liturgicon, 3) a statement that the liturgical commission has done a lot of good work but that it still needs additional reviews for conformity with the official books and input from appropriate scholars outside our Church. The direct the liturgical commission to review the entire text to ensure conformity with the official books and the principles outlined by Rome in the Liturgical Instruction and Liturgiam Authenticam and seek the input of qualified translators and dogmatic theologians from other Churches.

Regarding the Liturgicion itself, there is a real need to reprint the 1964 Liturgicion (the "red book"). It can be easily and quickly reprinted with corrections and only a few changes to the people's texts.

In the end I really do not think that all four of our hierarchs are going to be willing to sacrifice liturgical unity with other Byzantine Catholics and all of Byzantine Orthodoxy just because money has been spent on this boondoggle.

We'll leave the light on for all of you!

Alexandr

Well if the Novus Ordo of Saint John Chrysostom goes through, you may be leaving the light on for many as they flock back to their traditional roots.

The Insider

Such as I. We will welcome you home with open arms and open hearts!

(P.S. We always need help pinching pyrohy!!!)

can i ask something - is there any new Liturgicon that has revised? I am doing a survery nowadays and asking... I am Romanian catholic byzantine and in my country the Byzantine Vespers (vecernia) and the Byzantine Matins (utrenia) although they are mentioned in the Liturgicon they aren't done by the priest. i am interested whether this happens in other Catholic Byzantine Churches.

My local Ruthenian Greek Catholic Priests also refuse to have Vespers and Matins.

"My local Ruthenian Greek Catholic Priests also refuse to have Vespers and Matins."

Good shot!

Sam

InCogNeat3, I sent you a PM, but are you referring to priests within the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh itself when you mention their not having Vespers or Matins? If so, I thought they could use MCI texts, because they are approved for use within the archeparchy. Does anyone else here know more on this? (NOT referring to proposed liturgy.)

Jim,

You are acting like this is some sort of shocking revelation. You surely are not that naive.

The Insider

Actually, I AM hoping that they are that naive! I find the alternative worrisome indeed!

Alexandr

Not shocked at all. Naivete aside, are there other answers, apart from one like, "they don't want to, so they aren't gonna"? I hope so.

No in most cases that last part of your statement pretty well sums up the motivation of most of the brethren, most are will not attend the service (Vespers or Matins), so we are not going to do them.

The Insider

I am refering to parishes within the Pittsburgh Metroplia, but not neccesarily the ArchEparchy.

Both Priests play the "pretend he is nuts for asking for Church Services in a Church" game. One Priest has Saturday evening Liturgy (and Sunday morning Liturgy at the same Church. Same Altar, same Priest, etc.) Fairly recently a Roman Catholic Diaconate Class visited for Saturday Evening Liturgy expecting an hour and a half "Mass". They were shocked to instead experience a 45 minute Divine Liturgy. This Priest, so far as I can tell has absolutely no desire to have Vespers, Matins, Molebens, etc. This Priest does have some good qualities and I appreciate his many sacrifices to be a celibate Priest, etc.

The other Priest does have some health issues, however he could easily sit for much of Vespers and Matins if he wasn't up to standing the entire time. This Priest also frequently uses the "only you and the cantor would show up" and "in Orthodox Churches, often only the Priest, Deacon, and their families show up for Vespers" and "Oh, the Byzantine Liturgy and other services are Monastic anyway" excuses. This Priest tells me to have Vespers on my own, at home. (I attend vespers Saturday evenings at the local Orthodox Churches.) I also very much appreciate this Priest for his many sacrifices and gifts.

In summary both Priests just don't feel like having Vespers, Matins, Akathists, Molebens, etc. Therefore they won't. By refusing to catechize and promote They fulfill their own prophecies that noone would show up if we did have the Church Services.

Ultimately, the Bishop does not want to mandate, or even promote Divine Services other than shortened versions of the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil and the abridged Presanctified Liturgy. Therefore it is also very much the Bishop that has the "they don't want to, so they aren't gonna" approach. (Although it is also the Priests fault and especially my fault for lack of worthy prayer.

We supposedly have been having "the new Divine Liturgy" on Sundays for over a year now, but that is not quite true. I noticed the link to the "new liturgy" has at least one verse of a third antiphon, which is one more than we have. The "new liturgy" apparently has dropped the filioque, but we still include it. At the "Preparation for Communion" litany, we have two "Lord, have mercy"s and no "Grant it, O Lord"s. We do get to experience the gender neutral language, however.

We tried having a reader's service of Vespers on Saturday evenings, and the vigil of Vespers/Matins/1st hour on eves of feasts, but received no support from our priest encouraging people to attend. Attendance averaged about three people. Finally we just gave up and started attending a local Orthodox church for these services.

I am continually haunted by a conversation I had with the Orthodox priest one afternoon. He jokingly quipped, "When you grow tired of only being as Eastern as they'll let you be, remember that we will still be here." I dismissed it at the time, but it is sounding more and more prophetic.

I pray all the time that Jesus may still the turbulence of my emotions, tossed about by the storm of liturgical changes just as he calmed the storm-tossed waters. But I'm afraid that I am getting increasingly seasick.

Cause me to know, O Lord, the way wherein I should walk; for unto Thee have I lifted up my soul.

Oh, I like that! I'll have to keep that one handy.

Alexandr

I wish EVERY BYZANTINE CATHOLIC could attend vespers at St. Theodosius cathedral in Cleveland at least once in their lifetime.

They'll never forget it, and really have something to think about.

We're experiencing major thread drift, but nevertheless....

Getting people to attend Vespers and Orthros is a universal problem. One EC parish I know has both, but they're attended by no more than 10% of the people. I've attended Orthos at an Orthodox parish and a cathedral, and attendance (as well as the number of clergy!) was even less than at the EC parish.

The clergy - and the faithful as well - need to explain the importance of these prayers to their brethren. Failing that, if the people won't come, the people won't come.

However, I don't think this should have anything to do with whether or not we have Orthros in our parishes (or for that matter whether or not we try our best to do readers Vespers/Orthros in our homes). In the end, they are not "services" for the people to attend, but the Church's prayer to God, which goes on regardless of the number of attendees.

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Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning!

i am very sorry but the structure of the Vespers and Orthos cannot aply to a a home reading!!! their main feature is that they are celebrated with the entire community and not in a private space, at home or duuno where. you cannot buy all the books needed when you sing the Vespers in the church, and because of that, the private reading has nothing to do with real and complete Vespers in a church.

It's not THAT hard. All you need is $1500 worth of books.....

Seriously, I know private "readers vespers" at home is a very poor substitute for the real thing and that it's almost impossible to do it properly. But sometimes a poor substitute is all we can do.

So I'd reiterate the point, those whose parishes make the effort to have Vespers and Orthros - critical prayers of the liturgical Sunday - are very lucky.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!

It is, of course, true that a complete set of service-books is expensive. There is little that can be done about that problem (I did not say there is nothing that can be done about it!). Some publishing houses make it a little easier to purchase the books over a period of time; others do not. The two English editions of the Menaion currently available are both actually rather a bargain when one considers the expense of producing such books for what is inevitably a rather small market. But the fact of the matter is that we need the service-hbooks. The books are not going to print themselves, or bind themselves (binding costs more than printing these days - ask me, I know only too well! The principle given us by the Lord Jesus Christ remains true: "where your treasure is, there will your heart be". Anyone who wants to become seriously familiar with the Byzantine services needs the appropriate books; there is no way out of it.

There is, as I hinted above, something that could be done. Ridiculous amounts of money and other scarce resources are being wasted in duplicating efforts, and that is a luxury that our Church cannot afford. With a genuine willingness to agree on basic criteria, and to find solutions to certain controversial passages, it would be much less difficult to publish the complete set of service-books in a uniform edition at a lower price without sacrificing quality. I don't see this happening now or in the immediate future, so I bless the name of those brave people and publishing houses who are getting English translations of the service-books into print. If we don't care for the functional variety of English these publishing houses use or we would prefer another approach to translating - well, who is standing in the way? Meanwhile, save your pennies, bug your friends, and buy the existing English service-books and thank Almighty God that someone has had the gumption to translate and publish them.

Fr. Serge

my idea was that the Vespers and Orthos aren't to be done privately but in public, with the entire community. i might add the fact that you can't sing all the service by youself, it is almost impossible, trust me, I did that at least 4 or 5 times and had to think about again about that!

claus ion my brother in Christ-

I think in principle we are in 100% agreement. However, the reality here in the US is that some parishes don't want to do this, and even in those that do only a small number of the parishoners come. We wish everyone would be there; in reality if we have these services it's sometimes only a few people plus the clergy.

And as for your earlier question:


In my parish these services are shared between the readers, the deacon and the priest. In our Horlogion (book of the hours) it lays out specific parts for each of these persons. The psalms, troparia, the canon the selections from the Octoechos and Menaion and the like are chanted by the readers. Most of the litanies are done by the deacon. Some of the litanies and all the blessings are done by the priest, and the Gospel is proclaimed by the priest.

Fr. Serge-

I'm in complete agreement. I think your estimate of two menaia is a bit low; as I recall when you look at the universe of Catholic and Orthodox publications there are several. I do think it's silly to go to all the translation effort for maybe 20 parishes or so, and wish that each eparchy (or group of eparchies) didn't have its own translation. It all comes from basically the same Greek or Slavonic texts, yes? Surely one or two translations would be good enough?


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Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!

Let me be cynical for a moment ...

Priests often receive 'donations' for serving Divine Liturgies. Maybe if they could request stipends for non-sacramental services they'd be more inclined to serve Vespers, Matins, etc.

Never mind the stipend. I'll be ecstatic with a small number of reliable people willing to commit themselves to coming to the services, reading, chanting, and serving.

Fr. Serge