What effect will the new Divine Liturgy have on relations with our Orthodox brothers, as well as our relationship with other Eastern Catholics?

LOL!

Does anyone want a piece of this before I launch?

Alexandr

Remember--charity always and in all things.

BOB

Thank you Bob for that reminder for any takers on this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Oh dear Bob, of course.

Job 41
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.


Alexandr
"By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning."

How can we know that yet, since we haven't seen the new Divine Liturgy? Won't we have to wait and see?

ByzanTN

We are not totally in the dark here. The priests of the Metropolia received copies of the texts in 2005. Links to that text have been reference many times on this forum.

If there have been subsequent changes since the "approval" of the Congregation of Oriental Churches in Rome in 2001, have these changes been recognized by that Congregation?

"If there have been subsequent changes since the "approval" of the Congregation of Oriental Churches in Rome in 2001, have these changes been recognized by that Congregation?", said Lazareno.

What makes you think the Oriental Congregation micromanages the Ruthenian Metropolia? Remember, armchair canon law is not universally accepted, east or west. You need a canon law interpretation? Pay.

Dear Lazareno,

Fr. David was kind enough to answer that question somewhere on this forum, saying that re-approval was not necessary because the changes were completely in line with the original approval document, which hasn't been made public.

Sorry to burst your bubble there Jim-o, but the East does not employ Canon lawyers. All priests are trained in Canon Law. If an issue comes up that the local priest is unable to resolve, it goes before the synod of bishops for a final say. All laity is instinctively aware of what is right and what is not, and history records many instances where it was the laity who have saved the Church from apostate hierarchs. . Please stop thinking like a Latin. It's what got your Church in the mess that it's in right now.

Alexandr

Imagine, if you will, an oversized piece of Baba Munya's freshly baked cheesecake, with fresh strawberries and smothered in good dark chocolate, sitting next to a cup of freshly ground columbian coffee, made with water fresh from the spring. Such a treat is best savored for a while, untouched, just reveling in the joy of anticipation of tucking into such an epicurean delight. Such is the question originally posted on this thread. And me just finishing a long Fast, tucked into the bargain!

Alexandr

I expect that the effect will be completely negative. Byzantine Catholics and Byzantine Orthodox are supposed to celebrate the Divine Liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great, not the whimsical Divine Liturgy of whatever Bishop is in control.

The New Liturgy deletes prayer, according to Western Catechism we were created to render Honor, Praise, Worship, and Glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity undivided. The New Liturgy lessens the amount and quality of the worship for which we were created. This does not come from God, but rather from the evil one.

The last time Catholics changed the amount of words in the Creed, the Creed of the Universal Church, The Great Schism of nearly 1,000 years was a direct result.

While my initial question asked about relations with other Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I also expect the Creed of Pataki, Schott, Kudrick, and Skurla to express to the Monophysite Christians that there is something wrong with the Nicene Creed. The Ecumenical Councils (the real ones) are infallible. By changing the Creed, the Ecumenical Councils are deemed in error, and therefore the Holy Spirit is denied. The Monophysite heresy and any other heresy that denies the Nicene Creed can feed upon the example of the "Catholic" Bishops that would dare change the Nicene Creed. How can we ecpect the Monophysites to embrace the Nicene Creed, if we don't ourselves?

IncogNeat3,

The Oriental Orthodox recognize Nicea I, Constantinople I, and Ephesus and use the Nicene Creed.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Alexandr,

Oh dear indeed. The Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, certainly make use of canon lawyers. There is even a learned Society for the Study of the Law of the Eastern Churches, which includes experts from both the Orthodox and the Catholics.

To its own recent embarrassment, the Moscow Patriarchate was wont to send the then-Metropolitan Philaret of Kyiv to various gatherings around the world as an expert on Orthodox canon law. A colleague of mine was highly - and rightly - offended when she described the dear man in such terms and I inadvertently but rudely burst out laughing. I apologized, because I had no business to insult my colleague. However, my inadvertent outburst of hilarity took place in 1988. If anyone were to describe Philaret (in his present incarnation) as an expert on Orthodox canon law, my erstwhile colleague would probably be even more offended than she was the first time around.

But there really are Orthodox specialists in that arcane field. It's true that a properly educated Orthodox priest is taught something of the subject. A properly educated Orthodox priest is also taught something of Patristics, but he will be the first to confirm that this does not qualify him to be considered an expert on Patristics.

My humble apologies for being a bit tetchy at this hour of the morning - but I really couldn't let the assumption that any educated Orthodox priest is sufficiently expert in the highly complicated field of Orthodox canon law as to render higher studies in the same field unnecessary pass unchallenged. By the way, I am no canon lawyer myself!

Fr. Serge

Oh, I am aware of the existence of clergy that make a higher study of the field of Canon Law. One does not spend any time with the Grabbes and be unaware of that fact. What I was responding to was the statement of paying for the interpretation of Canon Law and the use of barristers. It does not take a Canonist to smell the odour of putrefication of rotten kapusta, neither does it take a Canonist to see the errors being proposed by the Revisionists. And there is not much difference between the two. What really gets my goat is the smug suggestion implied, but not stated, that who are we to question this foolishness that the Revisionists are so intent on foisting on the Church. The laity have always been the guardians of the Faith, just as Monastics and Hierarchs have. Even when hierarchs have fallen into error, it was the laity and beloved monastics that have risen to save the Church. If the neo-Nikons think we are going to go away, they better think again.

Don't feel bad about being tetchy. It's 4:00 am here, and I admit to a bit of tetchiness myself.

Alexandr