How has the New Liturgy effected your Spiritual Life? How have those responsible for the New Liturgy effected your Spiritual Life?

The New Liturgy, along with another serious matter compelled me to visit a Roman Novus Ordo Parish. I attended a Roman Novus Ordo Liturgy at 4:00 P.M. today. (According to the Bullitin it fulfills Sunday Obligation)

I made many observations and even took a few notes.

While still in the parking lot, I noticed that 95% of the people going to Church were at least 55 or 60 years of age. I have been told many times by different people that the reason Saturday night Mass (for the purpose of fulfilling the Sunday obligation) was started was to enable pius Catholics that were forced to work on Sundays to have the opportunity to worship, fulfill the Sunday Obligation, and receive to Communion. It was apparent that % of people that were present and still in the work force was very small. Those in attendance that are in the work force are not neccasarily forced to work Sundays.

The Church does not have a Communion Rail or any boundry between Earth/the Nave and Heaven/the Sanctuary.

The Church is built in a semi circle fashion. The Church follows Neo Iconoclasm principles. It has a large Crucifix hanging at the rear of the sanctuary and perhaps 2 statues hidden in the rear of the Nave.

There were 2 Altar boys and 1 Altar girl. The Altar Girl and Altar boys all wore Albs and what I definately consider to be Pectoral Crosses.

The opening processional hymn was "All Are Welcome", by Marty Haugen. All Are Welcome was played on a piano. To me the lyrics of "All Are Welcome" did not seem to Catholic and did not offer Praise, Honor, Worship, or Glory to the Trinity.

Immediately after the opening hymn "All Are Welcome", the Celebrant Priest said something like, "And I would like to reiterate the Refrain, All Are Welcome."

The "I confess to Almighty God and to you my Brothers and Sisters that I have sinned through my own fault....." prayer was omitted/not used (unfortunately it is not required either.)

The Kyrie was not sang. It was an Ad Lib Kyrie by the Priest. It went something like this "Ad Lib, Ad Lib, Ad Lib Lord Have Mercy, response Lord Have Mercy, Ad Lib, Ad Lib, Ad Lib Christ Have Mercy, Ad Lib, Ad Lib, Ad Lib, Lord Have Mercy"

The Organ was used for the Gloria.

"All the Ends of the Earth" was played on the piano.

The Sermon was in part about the Wedding of Cana. The Priest interpreted the changing of the water into wine to be a sign of Christ changing the older, plainer religion of Judaism into the newer, more full religion Christianity. But the Sermon was mostly about not critisizing the Church because we are the Church and to critisize the Church is to critisize ourselves.


"We are Many Parts" from the Unity songs section of the hymnal was the Oferatory hymn.

The Communion Hymn was played on the guitar and was something that could perhaps be titled "My Heart Sings?" Which is also by Marty Haugen.

Several Priests appeared to help give Communion. It looked like the Priests were giving the Body, while the Lay people had the Chalices with the Blood. At some point I noticed that though there were many people still left in the Communion lines, the celebrant was no longer/or never was distributing Communion. The lay people and the non celebrating/non-concelebrationg Priests were still distributing Communion. At the conclusion of Communion it looked like a Lay Man was pouring several Chalices into one Chalice. I don not know if he was cleansing them, though I had heard that the Pope removed the Dispensation for Lay People in English Speaking countries to cleanse the Chalice.

After Communion, the celebrant told a joke. (This is not a joke, it is true.) The joke was about a husband and wife. Thus husband looked to be about 60 but he was really 78. The punch line was something like for 50 years the wife went inside and the husband went outside.

The Recessional Hymn was something that may be called "Come My Sister, come my Beloved" or perhaps it is called "My Heart Sings?"

After the Roman Novus Ordo Liturgy I noticed the Altar Girl and Altar Boys unvesting. The Sacristy was in the back of the Nave, I think that the Priest was also in the same Sacristy. Anyway, after the Altar Girl unvested of her Alb, I noticed what she was wearing underneath. It was not much. If she is lucky, her skirt may have gone 1/3 of the way to her knee.

While leaving I looked for a place to light a candle. I wanted to light a candle, so I asked where the candles were to light. They do not have ANY candles to light in the Church. Not even the corny electric, put money in the box, push the button and the electric light comes on for a week kind. I was told that I could exit the Church and walk aways to the Chapel. At the Chapel I could light a candle. So, I walked 100ft or so to the Chapel, entered the Chapel and could not find any candles to light. So I went out the Chapel door opposite to the door I entered and found a seperate room, accesible only from the ouside that shares a common wall with the Chapel and has 3 glass walls. This was the place to light candles. There were 2 candle stands with 36, 7 day candles on each stand, plus some tea light style candles. All of the 7 day candles were lit.

I apologize for all of my mistakes and typos in my previous post.

WOW!!! Protestant under the Pope!!!! Hospodi Pomiluj!!!

Makes me appreciate my parish so much more!

Right idea, wrong direction. You don't need to go west. You need to go further EAST. Orthodoxy is available, and the liturgy hasn't changed . . .

-- John

The New Liturgy should fit in quite well.

CDL

Actually, I went to a 4:00 P.M. Novus Ordo. (Which, again, according to the Bulletin fulfills my "Sunday Obligation") This left plenty of time to attend 6:00 P.M. Vespers, 7:15 A.M. Orthros, and the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom after Orthros. (Note, this was the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, not The Liturgy of Priest David, Bishop Andrew, Bishop John, Metropolitan Archbishop Basil, Bishop William, and marionettes.)

I would also like to add that Pre-Cuts were not used. Orthros, Divine Liturgy, Sermon, and antidoran Distribution lasted from approximately 7:15 to approximately 11:00 A.M.

All of the Divine Services were beautiful and reverent. However, the lack of congregational singing and the way that 90% of the congregation were very, very late for Liturgy was disturbing. The psalti are amazing, however participation by the whole Church is severely lacking.

That sounds like a horrible Church going experience.

I am back from attending 4:00 P.M. Novus Ordo Church Service and 6:00 Orthodox Vespers. I attended a different Novus Ordo Church and a different Orthodox Church for Vespers than last Saturday.

This Novus Ordo building also follows the NeoIconoclast archetectural methods. In the main part of the Building there were some stained glass windows, one of which depicted Jesus Christ, "the good thief", and "the bad thief" crucified. There was also a large Crucifix on one wall. This Crucifix had Jesus nailed through his feet and left hand while he bent down extending a dove with his right hand.

There were three Altar boys and one Altar girl. Charitable people might even say that the Altar girl looked cute in her alb. None wore a pectoral Cross.

Unlike most NeoIconoclast Buildings that I have been in, this Building did not have a raised area against one wall as a Sanctuary without Communion Rails or Iconostas. This Building featured an Altar in the middle of the building upon an approximately fifteen foot octagon wooden stage. There were also a few other raised "stages" in the middle of the building including one with a Lectern and one for the Priest's chair. There were no actual "pews" but rather rows of joined padded chairs with hymnals in cubbyholes between chairs. There were no kneelers. On two opposite ends of the main part of the Building there were closed partitions. It appears that the main part of the Building could be expanded by opening these partitions.

The Sermon was about "building bridges" and fighting prejudice.

This was an "organ Mass" however they do have a piano and a drum set in plain sight.

The Altar girl seemed to do a good job carrying the Chalice to the Altar at the Great Entrance oops I mean the Offeratory.

During Communion almost everyone sat. This did not include all of the lay people distributing the Holy Gifts, nor myself. One of the Ordinary Extradinary Eucharistic Ministers saw me standing during Communion. So he walked to a row of chairs two rows away and offered me Communion across the rows of chairs.

After Communion I watched as several women chugged the remainder of the Blood and wiped the interior of the Chalices. I was pleased that the African Priest did not tell a post Communion Joke. (The American Priest, last week did tell a post Communion joke)

After the Service, I inquired as to where to light a candle. I was told that there was a place to light a candle in the Vestibule. Keep in mind that this building is not in the Cruciform or plain rectangle form. While on my quest to light a candle, I noticed an expensive looking framed print Icon of Pope John the 23rd. After a minute or so I found a place that had an unasthetically appealing Theotokos with Baby Jesus three dimensional image thing. In front of this "thing" representing the Theotokos and Baby Jesus was a two rowed candle stand with many different colored (read hideous rainbow colors) glass seven day candle containers. Not a single colored glass candle holder
had a lit candle in it. According to the Church Bulletin, this Building had more than 1200 people attend Novus Ordo Services last weekend. Yet there was not one lit candle! On top of that, there was not a single unlit candle in the whole candle holder. I asked someone, "Where are the Candles? How do I light a Candle?" I was told to go to the Church Office to buy a Candle, and then someone walked me to the Church Office. I purchased a seven day candle in clear plastic candle jar for $5. The girl that sold the candle to me then lit the Candle. I walked about 100ft to the multi colored glass candle stand in front of the three dimensional Theotokos with Baby Jesus image thing and put my candle in the middle, rear glass holder.

I said a prayer and departed for Vespers.

I'm assuming you're Byzantine? Why do you keep subjecting yourself to that nonsense? Are you a glutton for punishment?

My stomach is still recovering from last weeks disaster!

I don't think you need to continue this exercise of comparing styles of liturgy, Roman Catholic and Orthodox. I think you know how bad the Novus Ordo liturgy can be. I think you also know the basic differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I think you know what you need to do.

-- John

When I entered a period of disernment I followed this practice as well. Attending Roman Catholic liturgies (which I had not done for a couple of years prior) really helped me focus.

Michael

InCogNeat3s,

There are plenty of examples of good Latin parishes, with good Latin priests who do not turn jokes into Collects, with good iconography, good music and faithful laity. They do exist! Let's not turn this into a Latin bashing scenario. Quite frankly, I've lost my taste for it.

Nor do I agree with what John seems to infer - that this somehow defines the "differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy". Nonsense (or "nunsense" in certain cases) does not reflect the ideals of Latin Catholicism, or any other form of Catholicism. I believe that the right man for the Chair is in place to complete the restoration of Latin Catholicism desired by Pope John Paul II and called for by the Council of Vatican II.

As to the state of the Metropolia, I am grateful that I was able to find a home outside of it while still remaining Greek Catholic. The activities of the Metropolia does not reflect the activities of the whole of Eastern Catholicism (which is one of the issues). Why not visit another Eastern Catholic jurisdiction in your area? We travel an hour to services and are happy to do so.

You might even consider approaching the UGCC, the Romanians or the Melkite eparchies regarding starting a mission in your area. Would that not be a worthy project to consider?

God bless,

Gordo

Michael,

You attended the worst of the worst and that helped you to focus your discernment? I should think by attending the best of the best it gives one a more accurate sense of what he or she is leaving.

God bless,

Gordo

Did I state that I attended the worst of the worst? I don't remember typing that.

Michael

Michael,

No you didn't type that. I assumed that when you said you did the same thing as InCogNeat3s, you meant exactly that. My apologies for misunderstanding.

God bless,

Gordo

Yes, there are good Latin parishes. I am organist for one. The church is French Gothic, with approximately $3 million worth of Austrian stained glass in the windows. The statuary is classic, the priests follow the liturgical books, the music is good, and there's no nonsense. It's a beautiful and reverent atmosphere in which to worship. If you want to light candles, they are plentiful. I am Byzantine and wouldn't want to be anything else. However, those who look for abuses at the Latin Rite church where I play, would be wasting their time.

This morning I attended the last hour of Matins and the Divine Liturgy at an OCA Church. (They do not do full Matins)

Several things caught my attention. I found it "interesting" that we prayed for "OUR LORD METROPLITAN HERMAN," and for "OUR LORD BISHOP(Archbishop)________"

There was no exclusive inclusive language used to my knowledge. In fact we prayed things such as "PRIEST: FOR THE PEACE OF THE WHOLE WORLD, FOR THE GOOD ESTATE OF THE HOLY CHURCHES OF GOD, AND FOR THE UNION OF ALL MEN, LET US PRAY TO THE LORD. PEOPLE: LORD, HAVE MERCY."

Before The Great Entrance, Father came out onto the Solea, bowed, and said "Forgive Me My Brothers and Sisters."

The Curtain was closed for the cutting of the Lamb. Yes, the cutting of the Lamb. Some lay woman, lay man, or Priest did not pre-cut the particles.

The First Antiphon/Psalm 102 was sang in its entirety followed by The Little Litany.After the Little Litany the Second Antiphon/Psalm 145 was sang in its entirety. After the Second Antiphon the Hymn to the Only-Begotten Son, followed by what I suppose would be considered another Little Litany. Then we sang the Beattitudes. (Matthew 5:3-12)

The Litany of the Catachumens was taken.

The Anaphora was taken aloud. Father said that he says the Anaphora out loud because his Bishop says the Anaphora aloud, there would be a pregnant pause if he did not take the Anaphora aloud and the people would think he lost his place, and he also said that it would not make sense if the people affirmed things
that they could not hear.

The congregation prayed three pages of Prayers of Thanksgiving After Communion.

The lack of pews was great!

What was the discussion regarding, "Protestants trying to convert Slavs"? I am very interested in this topic.

BTW, keep the post up I enjoy reading them. This is helping me, so please ignore your critics.

Just to clarify - I am not criticizing InCogneat3s posts on his experiences visiting an OCA parish. I too have been blessed in the distant and recent past by my visits to many different Orthodox parishes.

Gordo

I think Gordo (is it Gordo or Gordon?) has some important things to say about this. We have to keep perspective. Comparing the worst of the Latin liturgy to the best of the byzantine liturgy is a kind of straw man argument.

I will say a few things, as one who recently left the Melkites to become Orthodox. I, too, took into consideration the state of the Mass in the Roman church and our relation to the Roman church as eastern Catholics. Of course, what was fundamental for me was not any particular manifestation of the liturgy, but the fact that I could no longer, in conscience accept the claims of Rome. Now, that being said, I do think that there are times when the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (in practice), are almost two entirely different faiths. I am not saying that this is the reality in substance. It is just an impression, or perhaps a fear that one has. I think that the eastern rite Catholics (of whom the Melkites I am most familiar with, being one for 12 years) are close to the Orthodox, but I am really not so sure that the Latin Church, at large, is close to the Orthodox faith. I think that this is something for Church leaders to consider when they are reforming/implenting the Divine Liturgy. By moving in the direction of the revisionists within the Latin Church, the BCC is dangerously moving further away from Orthodoxy. Now I understand that his holiness, Pope Benedict XVI wants to fix things and I think that he is the right man for the job. However, I just recently read a news report that he is facing stiff opposition from Curial leaders. If the news reports are right, the majority of the curial leadership is opposed to many of the kinds of reforms that Pope Benedict wants to implement. This does not bode well.

I will just say in conclusion that it is important to take into account what is going on in these latin parishes with their strange implementation of the Mass. But Gordo is right that one should also take into account those parishes where the Mass is celebrated with dignity and reverence. God bless.

Joe

I told some OCA parishioners about my experiences fulfilling my Sunday Obligation by attending 4:00 P.M. "Weekend Masses." I asked someone if he had ever seen a girl wearing an Alb and a Pectoral Cross. He said "No, but I have seen a girl in a Cassock and Sticharion at St. John the Baptist Ruthenian Catholic in Pittsburgh." (He said that there are about 6 St. John the Baptists in Pittsburgh some Catholic and some Orthodox and that he does not remember which one it was exactly) He said that a relative of his coined the term "Waccolytes" for Female Altar Boys.

Then another OCA parishioner mentioned that there was another crazy Protestant phenomenon in Pittsburgh. He said that there is a Presbyterian Church with Onion Domes complete with Three Bar Crosses on the roof. The Church was built to convert Slavs. He also said that there is a Priest/Professor at Sts. Cyril and Methodius that actually posesses a Protestant Pamphlet titled something similar to "How to Convert the Slavs from Their Idolatry." Then I brought up that Orthodox Catholic was telling us about Churches in Alaska or Canada? that are called something ridiculous like "The Ukranian Orthodox Catholic Prebyterian Church of North America." This was a Byzantine Forum topic about a year ago. Apparantly the Protestants created this Church to convert Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukranian Catholics to Protestantism. According to Orthodox Catholic they went so far as to have full Iconostasis, minus Icons! Royal doors, Deacon doors, etc. but no Icons on the Iconostas.

Then the ex-Greek Catholics now OCAers kindly reminded me that the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is the only Church with a history of actually removing Iconostasis.

Dear InCogNeat3's,

I do believe the above comment is not fully correct. I recall a link posted around a year to year and a half? that showed the interior of a Melkite parish that would have virtually passed for a Tridentine Church. I do not recall observing an iconostas in the pictures of the early interior.

Just a clarification, sir.

Even though I do not feel it truly matters. Our Church underwent much persecution, here in the US and around virtually the entire world! Fighting to survive sometimes may require choices to be decided that not all would agree with wholeheartedly. I believe these parishes are results of a few of those decisions.

What is more important is how do we help these parishes restore their interiors to reflect the beauty of our Byzantine Rite?
Can we come together as a team or commitee, to think tank ideas for fundraising that could be successfully implemented through some type of cyberspace? Such as donations that are all funneled together and sold via E-Bay?

There are so many great minds here that a venture such as this would have to work!!!!

In Christ,

Michael

No worries. I can see how that might be assumed.

I am originally Roman Catholic and I know the best parishes, so the Latin liturgy was not the issue. I was feeling the sentiment and pangs of nostalgia for the church I was raised in, knowing that I might leave it all behind. It still bothers me in that respect. Nonetheless, the Byzantine church spoiled me rotten. I became Byzantine for the theology and scored a big bonus with the liturgy. The 55 minute Mass, even well done, was no longer satisfactory to me.

I was not just quitting the BCC, but all of the Communion under the Pope. Indeed, I had postponed transferring into the Ruthenian church deliberately due to my doubts, I didn't want to ask the bishop to accept me as long as I still carried those doubts.

So I was really leaving the Archdiocese of Chicago, not the Eparchy of Parma, and I wanted to know exactly what I was losing in the process.

I hadn't prayed so much before or since that time. BTW, I knew there was a new translation of the liturgy in the works, but I was actually looking forward to that, I did not expect it to be a problem. I left long before all the liturgical anxiety hit the internet. I thought the few people opposing the new liturgy at that time were probably just cranks and I ignored them. Everyone seemed to complain about the music, but I thought the new music was good. I had every reason to expect the new promulgation would be fine.

I had theological reasons for my departure. The coming liturgy did not figure into it.

Michael

If the Melkite Church in question was St. George's in Milwaukee, then it was never installed. When the Church was founded, it was built that way. It was later revitalized and "restored" to being a proper byzantine Church (sometime in the 1970s I think).
God bless

Joe

I visited this exhibition when it was in San Diego at the Timken:
Tradition in Transition: Russian Icons in the Age of the Romanovs

http://www.hillwoodmuseum.org/press/icons.html

They showed many similarities with Roman Catholic art of time.

I just want to say that I am not engaging in covert prosyletization. The point of my earlier post was to agree with Gordo that we should be careful in our evaluations and not simply attend church services that will inspire us to the decisions we really want to make. Any life-changing decisions that people make should always be based on conviction, not on temporary feelings of anger or hurt. I took 4-5 years before I finally made the decision to break communion with Rome, and I had no idea how the Antiochian Orthodox Liturgy down the street would compare to the Melkite Liturgy. I left a thriving parish that did a good job at liturgy, for a parish much smaller, yet spiritually thriving in its own way :0). Wherever we are at, we should be the best Christians we can be. But, fidelity to the prayer/liturgical tradition of our fathers is part of that. God bless.

Joe

I was not stating that the Professor held those views! From what I understand he had the pamphlet to keep as a curiosity. My guess is that he has the pamplet so that he could use it to demonstrate what Eastern Catholics are up against.

Again, I did not mean to accuse this Priest of having Protestant "Convert the Slavs" beliefs or of distributing Protestant Literature. That was never my intention.

"Are we all to abandon the Ruthenian Church and forsake our heritage or hold on to faith that our future may be better?"

Nope. And I am not Catholic Bashing. I am merely pointing out that Latin and Ruthenians are Catholic bashing by changing the goal of their Religion. The Revisionists are mocking Liturgies that are over a thousand years old.

Also, it is the Revisionists that are abandoning the Ruthenian Catholic Heritage.

"by the logic presented by some on this forum that the BCC deserves to disappear as a result of its own hierarchical mangement."

I hope that the BCC does not disappear. However, the Hierarchs and the others responsible for the Feminist Liturgy do deserve to be removed from their positions. Lovingly receive them back after repentance and establish an authentic Byzantine Catholic Monastery where they can live the rest of their earthly lives. Polluting and Dilluting the Faith is no laughing matter. This includes inserting or deleting words from the Creed. Even though some non-English speaking foreigners approved the adulterated Creed, it is inexcusable and warrants excommunication.

The Following is borrowed from Slavipodvizhnik's thread "Words from Optina"

"As long as we are in this world, let us repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, so that we may be saved by the Lord while we still have time for repentance. For after we have departed from the world, we are no longer able there either to confess or to repent anymore.

Second Clement, c. A.D. 100."

Lets hold on a minute here Steve. Nowhere does InCogNeat3 imply that the priest at St Cyril's holds the view in the pamphlet mentioned. It just furthered his explanation of Protestant proseletyzing in the area. And I really must object to your implying Orthodox proseletyzing here. I have seen no, nada, zippo proseletyzing here by any Orthodox. On the contrary, to a post, we are encouraging you to stand up and save your church from those who would destroy it. I have already stated that I am actively opposed to anyone converting to Orthodoxy because they are mad at their bishops. This kind of conversion bears poor spiritual fruit, with problems down the road. One converts to the True Faith because one comes to the realization that it is the True Faith, not because they feel that the Catholic Church is wrong, and Orthodoxy is "the next best thing".

Really now, you have to stop seeing a Skhimnik in every woodpile and a Starets in every bush. Paranoia is a most unbecoming trait!

Alexandr

I don't understand this statement, as the people who formed the ACROD were in no way forsaking their heritage but seeking to preserve it at the time that they saw it in grave danger. One could say they were either right or wrong for doing so, but I don't think you could arrive at any other conclusion.

Look what Carpatho-Rusyns endured! This is from the OCA.ORG website for Ss. Peter and Paul Church in Vintondale, PA. A similar situation occured in my parish in a rivalry between a Galician cantor and a Rusyn cantor, resulting in violence and the priest and fellow Galicians leaving a forming a Ukrainian Catholic (now Orthodox) parish down the road. I guess what I'm trying to say is, letting emotions get in the way of the (hopefully) good of the Church can result in loss, hard feelings, loss of faith, and even schism. Read on and think!

"Parish Background

Ss Peter and Paul Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of Vintondale was first organized in Wehrum, a mining community some three miles away from present-day Vintondale, sometime between 1902 and 1904. The charter name given to the Wehrum Community was Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church. The only existing records of the Wehrum community is the October 1906 purchase, through Archbishop Tikhon, of a .45 acre tract for use as a cemetary in Buffington Township from RW and Eliza Mack. The cemetary and dedication monument dated October 6, 1906, still exist. Unfortunately, the town of Wehrum was shut down inefinitely in 1904 by the Collier Co and all miners were told to vacate the town. Most moved to Vintondale.

Through the efforts of the Rev Fr Alexis Mitropolsky of St John the Baptist Orthodox Church, Conemaugh, the Church Committee purchased Lot 11 Block J in 1907 for $1.00 from the Vintondale Colliery Company. The location of the new Church was to be on the corner of Third and Lovell Sts. The company deeded the lot to Archbishop Platon and the cornerstone was laid on November 28, 1907. The Church was completed shortly thereafter.

From the Carpathian region of the Austro-Hungarian empire, three groups of people settled to make up the Russian Orthodox Church: the group from northern Zemplin County, present day Slovakia, from the towns between Parizohuvce and Velike Poljane; the group from Mukachevo, present day western Ukraine, from the village od Velikj Luchkj; and the group from Marmarosh County, present day south-east Slovakia.

Only local oral history retains the memory of Ss Peter and Paul in the early years. But in April 1921, with the assignment of Rev Fr Dzwonchick, a rivalry between the two cantors: Charlie Tegza from Marmorosh County and Charlie Kovach from the Mukacheve region ensued. Each side hired a lawyers to represent them in court.

According to a document from the Cambria County Equity Docket, the church officers filed for an injunction against Charles Haratsy, George Babich, and Charles Riskom supporters of Charlie Tegza from Marmarosh County. These three men, along with their families staged a sit-down strike in the church, claiming they did not like the new priest.

As Church funds were depleted and the rivalry heated, the judge ruled that all church offices held by law mwmbers were declared vacant, All church records, money, papers and property were turned over to court-appointed officers. The new officers met with the approval of Archbishop Tikhon. The make-up of the new court appointed board was a mixture of plaintiffs and defendants. But the ordeal was not over.

In the meantime, Slavic speaking evangelists from Brownsville came to Vintondale and began to conduct Bible studies. About 12 families left the Church led by Charlie Tegza, former cantor and local butcher and became known as the Russellites. In 1923 this group purchased property a few lots down from Ss Peter and Paul and began their own Religious Services. This group, mostly made up of people from Marmorosh County, was later to become the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah Witness located in present day Mundy's Corner, PA. The schism at Ss Peter and Paul's was great. However, it was only not until 1930 that the Orthodox Community in Vintondale was able to pass the crisis and begin functioning with a normal church life. To this day the Jehovah's Witnesses frequently canvass Vintondale.

Nine priests have served the Vintondale Orthodox Community through the 80 years of her existence.

Owing to its small size, the parish has existed as a Mission for the past 30 years, sharing her priest with Colver and now in these ten last years, in Portage. As an aging community, the twenty-one adults which support the church must be lauded. In the past ten years extensive renovation and updating has taken place to improve the Church and her facilities. Currently a building project is taking place to better utilize basement storage space.

As a Mission Parish, Ss Peter and Paul is served each week with the Sunday Typica and Wednesday morning Divine Liturgy and Bible Study. It has been the Bible Study that has increased the will of the faithful to survive and prosper. Because the congregation is so small, when the faithful gather, we do so as a family or as a one room school house. Life in rural Pennsylvania does have some charm.

Services are conducted in both English and Church-Slavonic languages, and use the medium of Carpatho-Russian Congregational Chant.

As the knowledge of Scripture and the person of Jesus increases along with the rational explanations of our Holy Tradition and Orthodox way of life, Vintondale will continue to survive. and if some industruy will return to the area and bring secure jobs, the hope for the future in this little dale will make the 21st century."

In Steve's defense, the following two statements could certainly pass for proseletyzing:

"Right idea, wrong direction. You don't need to go west. You need to go further EAST. Orthodoxy is available, and the liturgy hasn't changed . . . "

and

"I don't think you need to continue this exercise of comparing styles of liturgy, Roman Catholic and Orthodox. I think you know how bad the Novus Ordo liturgy can be. I think you also know the basic differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I think you know what you need to do."

That said, this forum far exceeds any other I've ever frequented in both charity and erudition. Though I don't post often, I log in daily, and I admire all those who regularly post here (including those quoted above). Though I find Steve's accusation of proselytism defensible, I certainly don't mean to draw unnecessary negative attention to anyone.

God bless,

Chris

With all due respect Chris, I would hardly estimate those comments, made in their respective contexts, to rise to the position of proseltyzation. Trust me, if I wanted to proseletyze, the revisionists have basically done my work for me. Yet, despite such "easy pickings" the thrust of the Orthodox has been for the Byzantine Catholics to save their own Church. Otherwise, we Orthodox would have openly supported the revisionists and the destruction of the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Alexandr

Alexandr,

Though I stand by my position, I wholeheartedly agree that the general tone of this thread has been one of support, encouragement, and compassionate advice from Orthodox Christians for those who are anxious about the revisions. As a Ruthenian Catholic, I share this anxiety. Considering that the revised liturgy, at least as far as I can tell, has been the work of a few individuals without much input from either clergy or laity, one of my primary questions is: how will the new liturgy be recieved by clergy who had no part in its construction? One priest has already told me that he will refuse to implement the changes. A numerically declining Church that has been rent by divisions in the past has no need for a "modernized" liturgy that may prove to be more divisive than anything else.

God bless,

Chris

Didn't Archbishop Ireland in the 1890's, and Cum Data Fuerit in 1929 teach these modern bishops anything? Do they not know the history of the Greek Catholic church in the U.S.? I have a few books I can lend them if they don't. The church is nowhere near the size it was 75 years ago. Don't they realize why there is such a sizable slavic Orthodox church in the USA?

I'm convinced that they are too afraid to be Eastern. They must be Catholic first, and Eastern second. Let's see how big the exodus will be.

The novus ordo liturgy of the Ruthenian Church will have no effect upon my spiritual life, because I have no intention of attending services in a parish that uses it.

God bless,
Todd

InCogNeat3's,

Your posts recounting your experiences at Latin Rite parishes mirrors my own experience over the years, but it is possible -- if you look long enough -- to find a Latin parish that is liturgically inoffensive.

God bless,
Todd

Etnick:
When you say, "I'm convinced that they are too afraid to be Eastern. They must be Catholic first, and Eastern second," is that really what you mean? I would think that all of us who are Catholic should identify ourselves as Catholic (which is to say Christian), should identify ourselves primarily as Catholic (Christian), and secondarily as Eastern, Roman, or whatever, just as those who are canonically Orthodox (which is to say Christian just as Catholic does), should also identify themselves primarily as Orthodox (Christian), and secondarily as Greek, Russian, etc. I'm certainly not suggesting that Eastern Catholics retreat from their Eastern identity in the least, but I'm troubled by any suggestion that we should be Eastern first, then Catholic.
Ryan

This thread is way off topic. I am going to close it. Posters are welcome to start a new topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator