Presentation of the revised Divine Liturgy

A discussion of the revised Divine Liturgy will be presented by Archpriest David Petras on Sunday, February 25th at St. Stephen Church, 532 Lloyd Road, Euclid, Ohio at Noon. This presentation will be part of the Parish's Annual Lenten Day of Recollection. All are welcome to listen to Fr. David Petras make the Divine Liturgies of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great alive for our Church today. The discussion will center on what the Liturgy is, what is the mystery given to us by the Lord, and how it has been manifested in the tradition of the Church.

A discussion of what the Liturgy is, what is the mystery given to us by the Lord, and how it has been manifested in the tradition of the Church, then the question of what we need to accomplish to make this tradition alive for our Church in the United States today.

An event like this should definitely be recorded.

It sounds like a good event. I hope people will ask respectful but hard questions. As Aquinas said somewhere, truth is best discovered in a disputation.

Someone just pointed out that date happens to be the Sunday of Orthodoxy.

Hmmm, strategically planned on the same day as the Sunday of Orthodoxy?

My perennial question: will it be recorded or streamed?

Sunday of Orthodoxy, talk about irony!

Ungcsertezs

Will they chant the anathemas, I wonder. . .

No, no, no, no, no!

Aren't you with it?!

It is the Sunday of True Faith!

Orthodoxy is a dirty word, now go and run ten laps.

Monomakh

I've always wanted to invite all the Protestant clergy in town to come on Sunday of Orthodoxy. We shall announce a massive ecumenical service - then instruct the guests that the ecumenical service will culminate in a solemn recessional; as your name is called please join the line exiting the temple while the chanters intone a special acclamation in your honor! Vicious of me, isn't it?

Fr. Serge

Dear Monomakh,

In the new people's book, the title for that Sunday is "First
Sunday of the Great Fast", with the subtitle just below, "Sunday of Orthodoxy."

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Ask Father Petras why our pastoral needs are so different than those of other Byzantine Catholics?

The Ukrainian Catholics just reaffirmed at their synod that they believe that everyone in Ukraine and America should know and pray the official liturgical books we hold in common.

Orthodox parishes here in America are also doing similar things.

What are the specific pastoral needs in our parishes that cannot possible be answered by an appeal to our official liturgical tradition?

Why don't the Ukrainians have these same pastoral needs?

Why is the answer for us to turn our back on our tradition and copy the Roman Catholics?

Tell him his idea that the Divine Liturgy as given in our official books "does not enliven the Church" is mistaken.

Plan your questions well. He cannot answer with solid theology because he has none that supports his positions.

Jeff,

First of all learn what the wink icon means.

Second, are you telling me that in the new and improved Divine Liturgy that we should use the word Orthodox. So '...and all you Orthodox Christians.' instead of '..and all you Christians of the True Faith.' Other Greek Catholics do, so what would be the issue.

Maybe you'd like to explain why there is this inconsistency in our Church?

Awaiting your explanation.

Monomakh

It is very telling that the clergy were denied all input to these books but selected laymen seem to know every detail and even have copies in advance of the clergy.

What has Archbishop Basil been trying to hide?

Why did he exclude his priests?

This Revised Divine Liturgy is very bad. It must be opposed.

Is there something unusual about this? My Triodion (Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary) says:

THE FIRST SUNDAY OF LENT
known as
THE SUNDAY OF ORTHODOXY

Markos


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!

Dear Markos,

No, there is nothing particularly unusual - now. Back in the 1970's, probably due to the sense that "Orthodox" was a name proper to churches NOT in communion with Rome, the Greek Catholic churches often found other terms to use; for example, the first Sunday of the Fast was titled "Commemoration of the Holy Images" or somesuch, and so on.

Over the past decade or so, we are continuing to see more and more official and semi-official texts in the Byzantine Catholic Church use the word Orthodox. Since a previous poster stated that "Orthodox" was a dirty word, I felt it was appropriate to point out that recent publications now use it - just not in all the places where they might. (For example, while I WISH that the phrase "Orthodox Christians" was commonly understood to refer to the worldwide apostolic Church, it ends up assuming a more limited sense when actually used. For example, "How many Orthodox Christians are on this list?" - a count that included Greek Catholics would probably be questioned as inaccurate by quite a number of people here.)

Dear J-D,

I know what I've seen used at the Metropolitan Cantor Institute, which a number of clergy have attended as well, and also asked Professor Thompson (on the Music Commission) whether the title "Sunday of Orthodoxy" would be used in the new books, as it has been for the two years we have been posting Vespers and Matins propers on the MCI website, and he responded in the affirmative.

Since a claim was made (without a wink) that "Orthodoxy is a dirty word", I felt it appropriate to point out that its use is spreading, even if it is not used everywhere it ought to be.

I certainly would prefer it if more information had been provided to clergy AND cantors, but I have seen enough false statements on this forum over the past two years that muddied otherwise serious discussions, that I felt obliged to comment in this case.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. The new Ukrainian anthology uses not "Orthodox Christians", but "orthodox Christians" - which can certainly be understood to include those in communion with both Constantinople/Moscow and Rome. In my personal judgment, this is in fact the best solution.

My parish priest today said that it is a sin to oppose the new Divine Liturgy. Is he correct?

Your priest sinned by saying that.

"To all things innovated and enacted contrary to the Church tradition, teaching, and institution of the holy and ever-memorable fathers, or to anything henceforth so enacted, ANATHEMA." From the Synodicon of the Holy Spirit (to be read on the second day of Pentecost

Alexandr

No--it's the "Sunday of the Holy Images." Get it right!

New thread being started on if it is a sin to oppose the liturgy.

Great Idea Father! Please don't limit your invitation to Revisionists in Dublin, also invite the Revisionists from the Metroplia of Pittsburgh.

With all the disrepect, contempt, and sarcasm issued forth on this thread and others is it any wonder the hierarchs don't/won't listen to you? You could all take a lesson from our esteemed Admin. John who while disagreeing with the revision has always maintained respect for and charity towards the hierarchs, IELC, and Seminary. All you've done is make it harder for those who would speak on your behalf to the above.

I am also going to second Deacon Lance's post. While many disagree with the issue of the revision, and may even be upset by it, name-calling does not help the issue. You can respectfully disagree with anyone, and most times when done in the manner of respect and Christian charity, carries your point further than downright insults. I hope that all follow this. We are supposed to be adult Christians, not school children in a disagreement.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Getting back to the point of this thread, does anybody plan on attending? I wont be able to, but please share your thoughts on it if you do go.