Not exactly. The people leading this were (are) priests and nuns who prefer to wear lay clothes and (in the case of the priests) who sometimes prefer to sit with the laity. This change in liturgical language almost encapsulates their "vision" of Christianity -- you know: the Eucharist is a "verb" not a "thing", the Church is the "people", etc. It's almost a stealth operation, to "educate" the people by example. I've heard them talk like this. I wish I were making this up, but I'm not.

-- John

Fr. Elias,

Thank you for the correction. How many English translations are in use in Britain?

Fr. Deacon Lance

I know of four or five.

the unworthy,
Elias

For English:
I. Hapgood is still in use.
The old one done for the Fellowship of Saints Alban and Sergius.
The new one done for the Sourozh diocese.
and Father Ephrem's.
I am not sure what all the new Antiochians are using?
There may be more.

To All,

Just a sidebar to this current thread.

I have deliberately stayed out of the discussions in this particular forum because I am a Latin Catholic. For some reason the Roman Church has been dragged in here so I would like to make note of the following link to the General Instuction of the Roman Missal:

http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

It is an excellent work and has everthing one needs to know about how the Roman Mass is to be celebrated.

In my fifty years as a Latin Catholic I have never once heard the creed recited any other way than using "for us men and for our salvation" nor have I ever once heard the "Orate,fratres" prayed any differently than it is supposed to be prayed. I don't deny that somewhere, someone may be doing things differently than stated in the GIRM but it is an abuse and definitely not common occurence or accepted form.

Yes, Pope Paul VI did recognize that "the smoke of Satan had entered the Church". I will go as far to say it has entered every Church on earth for Satan will not let the Church go on without a fight. The Roman Church is a big church and it will take some time for the smoke to clear, but God be praised the smoke is clearing!

In Christ,
Bill

This is the most disturbing revision of the liturgy. I do not know if it could be considered as heresy, but there is one thing I do know for sure. It is an intentional act to emasculate our Tradition.

There is a traditional Catholic cantor in the RC church where I play, who has an interesting way of handling his dislike for the English translation of the creed. He brings a missal with him and recites the creed softly in Latin.

Dear Charles,

The problem I have with Latin is except for the easy stuff I need to read the English to know what I'm praying in Latin. I only ask that the English be properly translated from the Latin.

And with thy spirit,
Bill

I do understand that, since I am no Latin scholar either. However, if the English translations are giving some of our Byzantines problems, reading the creed in Greek or some language other than English might be a solution.

You've hit upon a marvelous solution! For those priests and parishes where the creedal translation is a great burden of conscience, they can recite the creed in Slavonic and remain in the spirit as well as the letter of the law. Wonderful compromise!

PS I think that is worth its own thread to call attention to it. I'll start it.

Council of Ephesus (Third Ecumenical), convened by Emperor Theodosius II, presided over by Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria, and attended by more than 200 fathers. It condemns Nestorianism (the belief that the person of Christ consists of two hypostases, a human and a divine, and that the Theotokos is therefore to be called Christotokos, as if Christ is not God). It also confirms the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, and declares any additions or subtractions to it are henceforth forbidden. It is also declared that bishops are not to interfere in the vicinities and dioceses of other bishops.

Recluse,

Do you really think all that gibberish from a bunch of dead European males is relevant? ?

Forgive me. I forgot it was outdated material.