Kiev, February 26, Interfax - Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and All
Ukraine has stated that the Ukrainian people are not ready to establish
an autocephalous national Church.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=2645

What I think is behind this is the MP trying to keep hold of resources and geography. Too often its really about that ... and nothing else.

I usually support the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate, but this makes 0 sense to me. I'd like to see Kiev Patriarchate recognized by Moscow ASAP.

This is strange, since quite recently Metropolitan Volodymyr again petitioned Moscow to grant his Church autocephaly.

Fr. Serge

Dear Fr. Serge,
You are right about Metr. Sabodan. However, this cited press release comes from "InterFAX" which tends to be very anti-Ukrainian. While the Orthodox Church _MP in Ukraine itself may include people who want autocephaly, in Moscow itself there is a strong voice that is imperialistic and looks back with fondness on the Russian Empire of Nicholas 1 and also the the Russian chuavanism of the former Soviet Russia. Their version of "Holy Rus" equates "Rus" with Moscow.

I hope its not MP putting pressure on His Beatitude Metropolitan Vladymyr to say that.

I have no problem with MP, I'd just like autocephaly for Ukraine.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=mosaic&div=117

I find the above linked article to also be of interest, in a bizarre sort of way.

Dn. Robert

Please keep in mind that it is extreme bad manners to refer to an Orthodox hierarch by his surname. One properly says "Metropolitan Volodymyr", not "Metropolitan Smith". The reason is simple: the hierarch is a monk, and monks do not use their former surnames, especially not with their monastic names. The only accepted exception occurs in legal documents.

Fr. Serge

Interesting that Moscow does not consider Kiev ready for autocephaly, since it was Kiev that spread Orthodoxy to Great Russia. The Churches of Poland, Prague and Finnland, however, are ready. Go figure.

I think the problem is the fact that Metropolitan Filoret was excommunicated from MP.

I hope unity and Autocephally will come when there are new Heirarchs in the Ukraine.

I like that whole tradition of monastic bishops, in and of itself, and the tradition whereby they keep their monastic names. First of all, you are probably more likely to get a Bishop with some spiritual depth, as opposed to a mere administrator or a mere "brick and mortar guy" (a clarification-nothing wrong with good administrators and/or builders-but spiritual depth must also be there-a good monastic is likely to have that attribute). Secondarily, the names "Bishop Job" or "Bishop Isaiah" even sound one heck of a lot better, and more dignified than "Bishop Todd" or "Bishop Sam". Just my two cents.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Dear Deacon Robert,Since your namesake in the Ukrainian Catholic Church has the last name,"Moskal",I can see why Ukrainians would prefer to call Bishop Robert by his first name! Inok,the Finnish Orthodox Church is Autonomous,not Autocephalous, and it belongs to Constantineople.The Polish Orthodox first recieved autocephaly from Constantineople in 1924,I believe.After WWII,when Poland fell under Soviet influence,the Moscow Patriarchate granted the Polish Church a "new" autocephaly.The Czechoslovak Church was missionary territory of the Serbian Orthodox Church between the two world wars.Moscow gave it autocephaly in 1951,I believe,for the same reason as she gave it to the Polish Church.

The Church of Finland is not yet autocephalous. But it's on the agenda.

Fr. Serge

And the UOC-MP independence from Moscow is not.

Moscow is the one that is not ready for this, nor will it ever be.

Unfortunately, the only way for a canonical Orthdox Patriarchate in Kyiv is to take steps that will result in its being declared uncanonical.

Alex

I think after Metropolitan Filaret is gone, the dialague between the current UOCMP and UOCKP will improve and this will result in a canonical Kyiv Patriarchate.

There is never a good time to support schism, but I cannot think of a worse possible time than the middle of Great Lent. The Ukraine will still be here after Pascha. Let us concentrate on our own shortcomings now, and put off such talk until after Post.

Alexandr

This was probably discussed years ago (before my time), but it seems so relevant to our discussion that I thought I would post the link. It is a fascinating discussion --

See http://ncronline.org/mainpage/specialdocuments/taft.htm

Dear Aleksandr,

The purpose of my insignificant post above was not to support "schism" in any sense, but to address an issue that is important from the standpoint of those Orthodox Ukrainians who wish to have a Kyivan Patriarchate that is completely autocephalous and independent of Moscow.

For Ukrainian Orthodox in the main, this is a matter of justice and is therefore more than an adequate topic during the Great Fast.

Also, if the ROC and other Orthodox Churches with Patriarchates simply declared them to the world, how is the Ukrainian Orthodox doing the same thing "uncanonical?" Why are Ukrainian Orthodox not allow to do what the Russian Orthodox Church itself did when it moved to unilaterally declare itself a Patriarchate?

To defend issues of justice is not to desecrate the Fast - but to fulfill God's command to keep it in the best possible way in terms of "breaking the chains" etc.

Finally, your reference to "the Ukraine" is no longer the way the independent Ukraine refers to itself. It is no longer a provincial vassal of Russia, whether Bolshevik or Tsarist.

I'm sure you did not intend to use that offensive term in that way, however.

A good Fast to you.

Alex

From the article



and that from a religious leader. Very nice.

Dear Alex,

Schism is schism, no matter how one looks at it. As far as "Ukraine" vs "The Ukraine", well, it is a matter of perspective, wouldn't you say? I will place further comments on hold until after the journey through Great Lent.

Alexandr

Although I support having a Canonical Ukrainian Patriarchate, i find the above highly offensive.....

This man is DESPICABLE

That again considering what organization this so called spiritual leader represents, I am not surprised.

For a scholar and a religious leader to say "to Hell with Moscow" is not precisely edifying, certainly. But one must read things in context. It becomes clear from the balance of the text of the interview that Father Taft was not literally seeking damnation of Moscow. He was suggesting, in undiplomatic language, that in this specific question Moscow has no right to a decisive voice and that a moment has come when it is time to cease worrying about Moscow's opinion. In that, he is correct.

One reason for such outbursts is that many people have become supremely weary of the Moscow Patriarchate's inability to recover from the "culture of lies" that was the USSR. Every time that Moscow attempts to insist that the "liquidation" of the Greek-Catholic Church in 1946 was absolutely canonical, they merely shoot themselves in the head all over again. Moscow would be better employed reviewing all of its own public statements between, say, the early nineteen-thirties and the present, and then notify the public as to which statements are authentic and which statements originated with the Soviet authorities.

Fr. Serge

It is also my belief that an autocephalous Ukrainian Patriarchate should come about.



He makes what a would consider a number of disputable assertions and some sweeping generalizations. This statement



Is just flat wrong.

The "To Hell with Moscow", which of course does not mean wishing their literal damnation, was just one of a series of offensive remarks. Some others that stood out include







He manages to fit neatly almost all stereotypes on could think of in regards to the Christian East in a single interview.

To me it's simply unbelievable.

FLAT OUT LIE. I would say that Ukraine is 80 to 90 % Orthodox.

It is certainly the habit of Father Taft to express himself . . . ah . .. forthrightly! But that neither renders him despicable (I've known him for about 50 years, and he is certainly not despicable), nor destroys the accuracy of what he may be pointing to.

To take just one example: I'm seldom inclined to believe ecclesiastical statistics, and I wouldn't think of believing them in the setting of the post-Communist countries. Sorry, but they are not reliable.

But why talk about the post-Communist countries? In the "good old USA" several years ago, a group of former Protestants who were becoming Orthodox were approaching a certain jurisdiction. The jurisdiction wanted facts and figures about this group, so these were provided. Unfortunately, the Orthodox hierarch in question was so unaccustomed to honest statistics that he telephoned the head of the group knocking at the door, to say there must be some mistake, because the number of parishioners provided to him was far too small to support the works of this group (including a seminary, a publishing house, full-time paid clergy, and so on). The head of the group responded that he was in a position to know, and the statistics were kept with scrupulous accuracy; if the hierarch cared to visit, he would gladly show the hierarch the records.

The hierarch then demanded to be told where all the money was coming from to pay the bills. The head of the group responded "our faithful tithe, quite dependably. How do your existing faithful support the Church?"

Get the idea?

Father Serge

Yes Father, I get the idea, our Orthodox hierarchy is all corrupt and the Catholic Churches is not......

They are all angels....

That's what you are trying to say is it not?

Corruption? I can not start naming names here, but I am from BOSTON... Get the idea?

And the fact that you are defending this Father who tells the Moscow Patriarchate or anybody for that meter to go to hell raises questions also.

Any stereotype will have a grain of truth or some example we can point to say "see this is example, it's how they are, it's true". That doesn't make stereotyping right, acceptable or even accurate.

I'm sorry Fr. Taft wants to play that game.

In the spirit of the lent I will not get into this anymore.

Father Serge didn't say this at all. In fact, the only thing that it points to is that Protestants are better at tithing than both Orthodox AND Catholics - which is generally (sadly) TRUE!

As to telling Moscow to "go to hell", it isn't directed to the Patriarch or the Russian Church; just as telling the Roman Curia to 'go to hell' with regards to the Eastern Catholic Churches means no disrespect to the Pope or the Latin Church.

Given my knowledge of the situation in Russia gained from discussions with many Russians, this is a pretty accurate description of where the MOP currently stands. For more on this, I encourage you to read John Binns, An Introduction to the Christian Orthodox Churches (Cambridge University Press, 2003).

In particular, I note his discussion of the current divisions between progressive and reactionary strains in Orthodoxy. After describing the depressing book-burning in Ekaterinburg, Russia, where the works of the modern Orthodox writers Alexander Schmemann, John Meyendorff and Alexander Men were destroyed, he writes: "A strong and determined conservative and traditional majority will remain, alongside an open and progressive minority, both of which will be held together by a cautious episcopate. This coalition of opinions, both of which are deeply rooted in and integral to Orthodox Church life, will continue to be involved with ecumenism and other churches, but will challenge and reshape the way that ecumenical organizations function."

Anyone who knows me, or reads what I write, knows full well that I have never said that the entire Orthodox hierarchy are a bunch of criminals or similar miscreants, and I have certainly never said that the Catholic hierarchy are all angels!

I have not defended anyone for telling anyone else "to go to Hell" - and Father Taft did not say that. He is quoted as having said "to Hell with Moscow" - which is not the same thing. If you read my posting again, you will notice that I didn't defend him for that either; I suggested that this was disedifying (not a complimentary term, certainly) and regretted that he had used it. But the colloquialism is often used in a sense which does not literally mean that one wishes someone or something to be in eternal fire. To offer a simple example, if one is attempting unsuccessfully to accomplish some task, and time is running short, one might say "oh, the hell with it, I've got more important things to do".

In this particular instance, four substantial volumes of KGB files from Soviet Ukraine have been published, showing beyond all doubt what a mockery the 1946 suppression of the Greek-Catholic Church was. Yet the Moscow Patriarchate continues to insist that this was an utterly canonical event. After a while, one understandably becomes thoroughly weary of such persistent mendacity.

Meanwhile, I had never previously thought that the distance from earth to hell could be measured on the metric system. One should learn something every day, evidently.

Fr. Serge

Some of Fr. Taft's other comments were interesting.

Dear Andrew,

I really enjoyed Father Taft's article. Looking at it objectively, and from my own personal experiences, he stated everything exactly as it is. Of particular interest was:



I had to laugh at that. I recall reading the book 'Falling Angels', (can't remember the author's name). There were interviews with priests, monks, and nuns, in Greece and Eastern Europe, and the emotionalism and irrationality was unbelievable. Of course being Greek I'm use to it, but we have to realize that people in that part of the world were never products of the Enlightenment. Today things have been changing, as more and more young people go to school in the West.

Regardless, throughout history the West was always misunderstood, so culture clashes were bound to occur. By being alien to them, as it is today in the Middle East, Western actions could only be understood throught the context of what they themselves are and would do in similar circumstances.

This is something quite important for us to realize today, especially when dealing with an alien Islamic and Far Eastern mentality. Let us realize that when we are condemned, it is not so much for our actions, but rather what they perceive to be the reason for our actions. By knowing so, we would realize what their own intent would be in similar situations.

Zenovia

The Moscow Patriarchate suspended the person who headed this book burning for a substantial period of time.

Look, I myself may not agree with everything MP does, but I do have tremendous respect for the Russian Church.

No Church in the 20th Century suffered the kind of persecution that was suffered by both the Russian and the Ukrainian Orhtodox Churches.

They tried to destroy our mother Church. The Communists ripped crosses of our Churches, they burned icons, they desecrated the remains of Saints, they killed close to 300,000 Orthodox Christian Bishops, Priests, Monks and Laymen.

After this shameless, heartless horrible persecution the Russian Church has survived, it has ripped itself from the clutches of satan and now shines a beacon for all the people in the biggest country in the World.

How can you now respect that?

How can you not understand that this kind of suffering and this kind of persecution does not permit for the Church to be totally rebuilt in 20 years without any problems what so ever?

As a Ukrainian Orthodox Christian, I have my own problems and gripes with MP, but YES, I love my brothers in Russia, as much as I love my brothers in Belorus, Georgia and all other the world.

May God grant us all the ability to see and be saved by the light of our HOLY ORTHODOX CHURCH until the end of time!

"How can you now respect that?"

TYPO, I meant How can you not respect that?



Here is the quote from the Greek Catholic Ukrainian Publication <SLOVO BOZHE> that Father Serge was interested in.

http://img111.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hereitisxe1.jpg

Dear Friends,

Unlike Miller, I DO count some famous people among my relatives.

This discussion is truly unseemly during the Great Fast, and I call upon our Father Anthony to do what appears best for our spiritual benefit with this thread!

Bless, Father!

Alex

Agreed Alex,

This thread is now closed. Apparently this a very difficult fast for many.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator