I have no idea how many have already left, but you can count me in if the New DL is not retracted. We have decided to stay and fight for a time, but we cannot remain very long.

The solution is a retraction. A terrible mistake has been made. The language of the world has infected the Liturgy like a resistent bacteria. We need a good antibiotic--and it is called "retraction."

I give money, and this is what I require from that parish. Over time, that approach is often effective, believe it or not.

Presumably, those who might address these questions do not have in mind becoming atheists, Confucianists, or whatever. It resolves down to two paths:

a) join a parish (or start one, if need be) of a Greek-Catholic jurisdiction which does not intend to adopt the revised Liturgy; or

b) join an Eastern Orthodox parish.


To take these in reverse order: one is justified in leaving the Catholic Church and joining the Eastern Orthodox Church if, and only if, one is honestly convinced that this is the Will of God. In that event, Godspeed. Otherwise, one would suggest to the relevant Orthodox priest to encourage long, hard and serious consideration (just as one would advise a Greek-Catholic priest to be in no hurry to receive people from Eastern Orthodoxy for any reason other than an honest belief that this is the Will of God).

That leaves the first alternative - finding a congenial Greek-Catholic parish of another jurisdiction where there is no threat of the revised Liturgy suddenly appearing, or starting such a parish if there is not already one. Spiritually, it would be very difficult to defend the idea that an American Greek-Catholic living in America does not have the right to join and attend the Greek-Catholic parish of his choice - particularly since long before the current controversy broke out one could easily find plenty of examples of parishioners crossing ethnic and pseudo-ehtnic lines for any number of reasons, and nobody caused them much trouble.

In most Greek-Catholic parishes, one can already find the Divine Liturgy in English (parishes where this is not yet the case are usually Ukrainian, and Patriarch Lubomyr has explicitly directed the US Ukrainian clergy to cater for the needs of English-language faithful, and other linguistic groups for that matter, so a courteous request to the local Ukrainian Greek-Catholic pastor or bishop should not meet with a refusal, especially if the propsective parishioners are able to be of positive help).

Setting up a new parish may be more difficult, both for the prospective parishioners themselves - one needs to have a sufficient base of people willing to commit themselves to what is, let's face it, a demanding endeavor, and one needs to convince the local bishop whose flock one desires to join that the new parish will be an asset, not a liability. This takes time. My advice would be to start small, with a Greek-Catholic society to explore the possibilities and meet together regularly for prayer, and continue to implore Almighty God to give direction.

Then, of course, there is the option of staying put - this is my parish, my parents' parish, my grandparents' parish; I go to Church, I give money, and this is what I require from that parish. Over time, that approach is often effective, believe it or not. Again, organizing a society (which restricts its activity to godly forms of behavior, including prayer) is an excellent idea.

So there are serious possibilities. We are all answerable to God and the Church, and we all have consciences. The man who truly believes is not in a hurry.

Fr. Serge

Is inclusive language the "make or break" issue for both of you in the revised DL, then?

When people talk about leaving, is it from the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Church (OCA, ACROD, ROCOR, GOA)?

Are you attatched to the Rusyn culture

E.) Become a member of an Orthodox Jurisdiction

A wise man once said to me when I was praying about joining the Orthodox Church, "Make sure it is a spiritual move and not an intellectual move."

will there be a retraction of this revised Liturgy? My crystal ball is out of order, but I venture to say that there is a high probability of such a retraction taking place.

1) it is almost never a good idea to join any Church for what might be called "negative reasons", and no worth-while Church will put up with people using them as a launch pad to attack another Church. If you think you should move, well, I certainly cannot discern that over the Internet, but I can tell you that you must be prepared to make the joys and sorrows of your new Church your joys and your sorrows.

This thread is so sad. Just when there is a real need for an Eastern revival so many devout people are considering leaving. I'm not blaming anyone, rather I'm quite sympathetic, but I just wish things were getting better instead of going downhill.

Moving from one church to another should be an absolute last resort. It should also not be done out of rejection, but acceptance.

You may also find you trade your current troubles, controversies and conflicts simply for a set of new ones.

The convert experience is littered with pitfalls. Many I have seen myself. It's not a decision to be taken lightly.

Moving from one church to another should be an absolute last resort. It should also not be done out of rejection, but acceptance.

You may also find you trade your current troubles, controversies and conflicts simply for a set of new ones.

Hence why it is said to make the move for spiritual reasons and not intellectual reasons.

"To start, I would like to read how the Kingdom is being advanced in inclusive language. On many threads, we read about the reasons not to use inclusive language. Now, I would like to read the opposite of those reasons."

Corsair,
I would like to see this as well. Personally, I can't really think of anything but there may be others who can.

To start, I would like to read how the Kingdom is being advanced in inclusive language.

Feminist ideology insists that when we speak of "mankind" we leave women out of the picture — although the ordinary dictionary defines "man" as representing first a member of the human race and only second — or third or fourth — a male adult.
(MSGR MICHAEL WRENN)

if the New Divine Liturgy is inspired by the Holy Spirit, I would hope that more discussion could take place as to how the changes are of benefit. I cannot imagine this would be hard to do. I make my plea to the revisionist to explain this to me. To start, I would like to read how the Kingdom is being advanced in inclusive language.

Serge:

How can you call yourelf a Catholic and yet maintain that: "one is justified in leaving the Catholic Church and joining the Eastern Orthodox Church if, and only if, one is honestly convinced that this is the Will of God. In that event, Godspeed."

No one is ever justified in leaving the Catholic Church. Schismatics can not be saved.

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, ... and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation... No one...can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

I don't mean to be rude, but I must point out that you are encouraging souls to embrace error and damnation!

Serge:

How can you call yourelf a Catholic and yet maintain that: "one is justified in leaving the Catholic Church and joining the Eastern Orthodox Church if, and only if, one is honestly convinced that this is the Will of God. In that event, Godspeed."

No one is ever justified in leaving the Catholic Church. Schismatics can not be saved.

Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, ... and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation... No one...can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

I don't mean to be rude, but I must point out that you are encouraging souls to embrace error and damnation!

Whoa!, whoa! , right there newbie dstan51. Might I suggest that you lay off the caffeine, take a deep breath, and consider apologizing to Archmandrite Serge Keleher, a world reknown and highly respected Ukrainian CATHOLIC priest, who you saw fit to reprimand. May I ask what diocese you are bishop of that you so easily reprimand a priest? Oh, and while you're at it, you also might want to consider apologizing to all of the Orthodox Christians on this forum that you felt so comfortable in labeling heretics and schismatics.

Gotta love some of these more Catholic than the Pope types!

Alexandr the heretic and schismatic

To me, being in communion is to be inside of TRUE APOSTOLIC CHURCH that Christ established. Catholic & Orthodox being an Apostolic Church. Not based on the Pope only and all alone.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Perhaps we should organize a collection and have a medal struck with the inscription "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" on one side and a portrait of Boniface VIII, holding his bull Unam Sanctam on the other.

Fr. Serge

"I have heard from third party information (which may or may not be correct) that on a typical Sunday only about 60-80 people show up for Liturgy at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist."

Ray,
This may sound like a major exodus of people to some, but in reality we have to ask ourselves in just how many parishes is 60-80 on a Sunday the norm? There are a few exceptions of course, and no parish can afford to lose even one, but the statement "only about 60-80' may not reflect much of a change from what the parishes had pre-liturgical changes.
Just an observation from up north in old country...

I was responding to Father Serge's assertion that someone who is raised as a Catholic can knowingly reject the faith, join the Orthodox Church and be "justified" in doing so. Is that not a mortal sin? Are Catholic doctrines on the papacy and other things meaningless?

Someone whose conscience and heart knew that the Catholic Faith is the fullness of the Gospel would not likely leave the Catholic Church for another Church

Did Mohammed or Joseph Smith know with conscience and heart that their revelations were true? If a person would argue they did then would that then be condemnation of Christianity?

If they did not operate with full conscience and heart, then did they knowingly reject what they thought was the correct faith?

If hypothetically, they knowingly rejected what they perceived was the correct faith then did they not commit a grave sin? If hypothetically, they did create a grave sin is this not a similar correlation to the previous situation?

Just hypothetically speaking of course…


Of course, we can't answer these questions only G_d can. But it does make for interesting conversations. BTW, how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?