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#229118 - 04/02/07 05:46 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Ung-Certez]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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As your undersigned humble servant has noted several times, yes, there is precedent for such a retraction - the most recent one that I am aware of is that incredible Slovak Liturgikon which was eventually retracted after a torrent of protests. And there are other examples.
Fr. Serge
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#229178 - 04/03/07 08:41 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Pennsylvania
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As your undersigned humble servant has noted several times, yes, there is precedent for such a retraction - the most recent one that I am aware of is that incredible Slovak Liturgikon which was eventually retracted after a torrent of protests. And there are other examples.
Bless Father, Do you recall the time frame from promulgation to retraction?
Edited by Recluse (04/03/07 08:41 AM)
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#229215 - 04/03/07 06:14 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Recluse]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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The Blessing of the Lord!
That ghastly Slovak Thing was published in 1986 - with, I am told, an oral permission from Cardinal Lourduswamy, then Prefect of the Oriental Congregation - and was retracted about 10 years later. I cherish my copy - it reminds me of the important principle "Never Give Up!".
I only observed the book being used once (and once was once too often, let me tell you!). The normal Divine Liturgy in Church-Slavonic was also still in use in the Eparchy of Preshov. Finally the pressure was too much, and they produced a remarkably accurate translation of the 1941 Church-Slavonic "Ruthenian Recension" Divine Liturgy, which is now in use. I have it, but since it was sent to me over the Internet, I don't have the publication date.
Fr. Serge
Edited by Serge Keleher (04/03/07 06:16 PM)
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#229221 - 04/03/07 08:23 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
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Fr.Serge,
Oral permission, from an Indian Cardinal who most likely does not speak Slovak? It sounds as if Bishop Jan published that heavily latinizied edition on his own intiative with a wink and a nod from a latinizing prefect without any real recognitio from Rome. If published in 1986 this was before the promulgation of the CCEO and the Instruction and interestingly enough the same year the Insturction was promulgated the 86 Slovak edition was forbidden.
Given the above circumstances I don't think the introduction of the 86 Slovak and the promulagtion of the 06 English can really be compared. The 06 translation was reviewed by the Oriental Congregation by competent liturgists who fluently read and speak English and with much back and forth discussion and input from Rome.
Fr. Deacon Lance
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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#229222 - 04/03/07 08:29 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: New York
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Fr.Serge,
Oral permission, from an Indian Cardinal who most likely does not speak Slovak? It sounds as if Bishop Jan published that heavily latinizied edition on his own intiative with a wink and a nod from a latinizing prefect without any real recognitio from Rome. If published in 1986 this was before the promulgation of the CCEO and the Instruction and interestingly enough the same year the Insturction was promulgated the 86 Slovak edition was forbidden.
Given the above circumstances I don't think the introduction of the 86 Slovak and the promulagtion of the 06 English can really be compared. The 06 translation was reviewed by the Oriental Congregation by competent liturgists who fluently read and speak English and with much back and forth discussion and input from Rome.
Fr. Deacon Lance How many years transpired between the recognito and the promulgation and how many of the changes that have been decried here were added after the recognito was signed. Mary
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#229233 - 04/03/07 10:14 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Elijahmaria]
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Member
Registered: 07/14/02
Posts: 205
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Thank you, Lance, for your observations. There are major differences between the 1986 Slovak Liturgy and the Liturgy recognized by Rome now. To try to paint them with the same brush is a cheap shot. Interestingly, Fr. Serge in his book cites the promulgation of Bishop Emil in 1970 with favor. (I was a part of that promulgation, by the way.) The real life fact in actual parish practice is that the current Liturgy in real life brings us much closer to standard Byzantine practice than the 1970 promulgation did, yet this is condemned. Why????? It's simple, really, it's all a matter of what is written in the book. From many of the Administrator's comments also, we see that the main issue might actually be: What is written in the official books? It seems to me that what then actually happens in parishes is irrelevant. Bishop Emil's promulgation said, "the priest may," not "the priest must," and that's the whole difference. Of course, Bishop Emil's promulgation was a miserable failure, he didn't push the promulgation after the other bishops leaned on him, and - remember, I was on the scene - the priests almost universally considered his pastoral abbreviations as the norm, not the 1965 Liturgicon. The same thing is true for the Orthodox - pastoral practice on the parish level is quite variable, but again, it's a "book thing." They haven't, up to this point, changed the books - though that will come eventually. So, again, our Liturgy actually in real life in the real world brings us closer to the Orthodox. I would call the approach advocated by some on the Forum a "Gutenberg Fundamentalist" approach, that is, what is printed is what is important. I think what we have done is more honest and better expresses the spirit of the Byzantine Liturgy. At the same time, I would consider the use of some inclusive language a separate issue. If the Liturgy is retracted???? The Metropolia would just revert to the mediocre somewhat-Westernized Liturgy that most parishes celebrate anyhow. In regard to Elijahmaria's question - five years transpired between the recognitio and the promulgation, most of it due to a change of administration. How many of the "changes decried here" were added after the recognitio? None - zero - nothing - every change made was, in fact, because of the recognitio and in conformity with its recommendations. Nothing was "slipped in" to "water down" the Liturgy.
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#229243 - 04/03/07 10:36 PM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Father David]
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Member
Registered: 03/15/06
Posts: 621
Loc: UNDER THE PANTOCRATOR
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Thank you, Lance, for your observations. There are major differences between the 1986 Slovak Liturgy and the Liturgy recognized by Rome now. To try to paint them with the same brush is a cheap shot. Interestingly, Fr. Serge in his book cites the promulgation of Bishop Emil in 1970 with favor. (I was a part of that promulgation, by the way.) The real life fact in actual parish practice is that the current Liturgy in real life brings us much closer to standard Byzantine practice than the 1970 promulgation did, yet this is condemned. Why????? It's simple, really, it's all a matter of what is written in the book. From many of the Administrator's comments also, we see that the main issue might actually be: What is written in the official books? It seems to me that what then actually happens in parishes is irrelevant. Bishop Emil's promulgation said, "the priest may," not "the priest must," and that's the whole difference. Of course, Bishop Emil's promulgation was a miserable failure, he didn't push the promulgation after the other bishops leaned on him, and - remember, I was on the scene - the priests almost universally considered his pastoral abbreviations as the norm, not the 1965 Liturgicon. The same thing is true for the Orthodox - pastoral practice on the parish level is quite variable, but again, it's a "book thing." They haven't, up to this point, changed the books - though that will come eventually. So, again, our Liturgy actually in real life in the real world brings us closer to the Orthodox. I would call the approach advocated by some on the Forum a "Gutenberg Fundamentalist" approach, that is, what is printed is what is important. I think what we have done is more honest and better expresses the spirit of the Byzantine Liturgy. At the same time, I would consider the use of some inclusive language a separate issue. If the Liturgy is retracted???? The Metropolia would just revert to the mediocre somewhat-Westernized Liturgy that most parishes celebrate anyhow. In regard to Elijahmaria's question - five years transpired between the recognitio and the promulgation, most of it due to a change of administration. How many of the "changes decried here" were added after the recognitio? None - zero - nothing - every change made was, in fact, because of the recognitio and in conformity with its recommendations. Nothing was "slipped in" to "water down" the Liturgy. The "change of administration" has also so far failed to eliminate Altar Girls and ad popularem. (Not to mention the entire Latin Rite Novus Ordo fiasco) Yes, I decry these abominations as well, but the "recognitio" is still there as well. A Happy and Blessed Great and Holy Week! Behold the Bridal Chamber!
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#229265 - 04/04/07 02:41 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: InCogNeat3's]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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This is not the first time that Father David has expressed his wonderment at my praise for Bishop Emil's promulgation of the Ordo Celebrationis - I fully realize (and I already knew) that Father David had been on the scene for it, but I still fail to grasp why I should not regard that promulgation as something to be welcomed.
I have not painted the Slovak 1986 horror with the same brush as either the 2004 "final draft" or the Green Book. I was asked for a specific example of a book being retracted, and I gave one; that is all. So far.
But suggesting that the Liturgy as presented in the Green Book fulfills the 1996 Instruction is unwarranted, and is certainly not supported by the text of that Instruction.
Whether Rome has or hasn't given its "Good Church-Keeping Seal of Approval" to this latest revision remains to be seen - we have still not been vouchsafed even a glimpose of the letter(s) in which, we are asked to believe, that approval is expressed.
Fr. Serge
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#229270 - 04/04/07 04:12 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 04/02/02
Posts: 215
Loc: U.S.A.
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Deacon Lance: <<Oral permission, from an Indian Cardinal who most likely does not speak Slovak?>> Does the present Syrian Cardinal Prefect of the Oriental Congregation speak English fluent enough to judge whether our English "translation" is accurate?
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#229274 - 04/04/07 08:10 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Lazareno]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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Only once did I have the pleasure of conversing with Cardinal Lourduswamy {note, please, I said that I had the pleasure - not that he had any pleasure out of it!]. We conversed in English, and I did not ask whether he knew any Slovak. Oddly enough, though, one would only need to know the Byzantine Liturgy to know that something was seriously wrong with that 1986 book.
I may have met Patriarch Ignatius Moussa Daoud, the current Prefect, on one or another occasion when I was visiting the Middle East, but if I did I honestly don't remember it. Anyway, in the Middle East when meeting Eastern Catholic hierarchs and clergy, I would automatically speak French. I'm told that His Beatitude does not speak English.
Fr. Serge
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#229276 - 04/04/07 08:28 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Father David]
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Member
Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Pennsylvania
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The same thing is true for the Orthodox - pastoral practice on the parish level is quite variable, but again, it's a "book thing." They haven't, up to this point, changed the books - though that will come eventually. Yes Father. You might even say this is inevitable. I am not a gambling man, but I would wager to say that when this change occurs, it will not have inclusive language.  So, again, our Liturgy actually in real life in the real world brings us closer to the Orthodox. I disagree with this statement. I believe it further separates us from the Orthodox and other Eastern Catholics. At the same time, I would consider the use of some inclusive language a separate issue. Father, does this mean that there may be a partial retraction where the Traditional language of our Liturgy is restored?!? Or perhaps a letter is forthcoming whereby the clergy and the people are notified it is okay to say "men", "man" and "mankind", even though it is not printed that way in "the book"? I wait in hopeful anticipation!
Edited by Recluse (04/04/07 08:29 AM)
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#229278 - 04/04/07 08:45 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Pennsylvania
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I was asked for a specific example of a book being retracted, and I gave one; that is all. Bless Father, Yes. That is the question I had asked. Thank you for answering.
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#229279 - 04/04/07 08:46 AM
Re: If there is a retraction
[Re: Recluse]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 840
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Dear Recluse,
That is precisely why I asked you, I believe (and one other), if "inclusive language" was your primary objection to the liturgical changes.
Yours in Christ, Jeff
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