The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 71 guests, and 138 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,958
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down #229652 04/09/07 03:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
M
Mary of Egypt Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
For those of you who may post/read posts here I wanted to inform you that the last time our mission will hold Divine Liturgy will be April 29th. It is with a heavy heart that I post this. This mission is how I came into the Catholic Church.

Our current priest is a by-ritual priest of Roman rite. The local Roman bishop has wanted to shut us down and has been trying to do so since at least last June. For now he has succeeded by require so much of our priestsí time on Sunday that he will no longer be able to serve the Divine Liturgy. There is not a priest available from our eparchy. This has happened to four other missions from our eparchy, so we are fifth in line waiting. Obviously the local Roman bishop is not going to loan us another priest. I am not trying to make uncharitable comments about the local Roman bishop, as this is just a mater of fact. No offence intended and hopefully none taken.

If anyone here has been through this before, and knows how to acquire a new priest, please post or PM me. Charitable comments only please. I with many others of our community do not want to see this go. For most of us this was our only church.

I pray that it be Godís will for our mission to continue on.

Peace,
Mary

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Mary of Egypt] #229658 04/09/07 05:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Pani Rose Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Where are you located?

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Pani Rose] #229666 04/09/07 06:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
M
Mary of Egypt Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 192
Wichita, KS

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Mary of Egypt] #229675 04/09/07 06:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
A
Amadeus Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
I am unable to offer an answer to your Mission's dilemma on how to "acquire" immediately a priest, a Byzantine Rite or a Latin bi-ritual.

A cursory reading of the Diocese of Wichita shows it has 91 Latin Parishes, 16 of which are located within Wichita proper, each averaging 6,300+ parishioners.

With this so many parishioners, Wichita's Bishop, the Most Rev. Michael Owen Jackels, must have seen the burden on one of his priests serving additionally your Mission, which has not reached the status of a parish thus necessitating the assignment of a full-time priest. After a period, the potential of a Mission becoming a parish is evaluated against the dearth of priests of a given diocese.

I pray that your Mission will have another priest from some other smaller parishes of the Diocese of Wichita.


Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Amadeus] #229703 04/09/07 10:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Mary,

Would it be possible for you to import the priest from St. Luke's Sugar Creek, MO at least once a month?

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Michael_Thoma] #229704 04/09/07 10:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
spdundas Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
That priest at St. Luke's is in "trouble" from what I've heard as well as suspected. So, I don't think it'll happen.

Will comment on Holy Apostles situation later.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: spdundas] #229707 04/09/07 10:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Dr. Eric Offline
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Offline
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
SPDUNDAS,

Was Holy Apostles your parish as well?

Last edited by Dr. Eric; 04/09/07 10:14 PM.
Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Dr. Eric] #229718 04/09/07 11:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
SPDundas,

Just googled and read the AP article. Shame on him if the allegations are true!

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Michael_Thoma] #229719 04/09/07 11:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 17
T
ThomasM Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
T
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 17
It says that church and legal authorities have cleared his name once before so it might not be true.

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: ThomasM] #229733 04/10/07 03:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
kansassummer Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
This news makes me very sad. I have enjoyed and greatly benefited from the DL at Holy Apostles. I was really looking forward to taking my wife to be (we are getting married Ap. 28th) and making it our co-parish with a TLM parish. Now, those plans are gone for now. It did pain me to see low attendance at the liturgies at Holy Apostles. Seems like Catholics in this area are pretty dang dedicated to their home parishes and don't venture out much. The beauty of the Eastern Church (in my opinion) is not taught here in our schools. I DON'T GET IT !!!!!!!!!

Very sad,

Steve

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: kansassummer] #229736 04/10/07 06:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
spdundas Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Hello.

First of all, I'm NOT surprised that Holy Apostles has come to this point. However, I am a little surprised that it even lasted this long!

The cause of low attendance falls on the priest's shoulders. He has such indifference and extreme apathy towards people who established this community and built it. He has given NO respect for the founders of the community.

One may say it's Bishop Jackel's decision not to loan the current priest...but I want to say that his decision may have been strongly influenced by the low attendance of the community to a point where he didn't think it was worth the sacrifice of loaning a priest out to the community.

There is only ONE founder that remains with the community. The rest of them were gone mainly because they were very hurt by the priest and their extreme apathy which is prevalent in the Roman Churches. Very sad, indeed.

If I can remember correctly, there were about at least 15 TRULY canonically Byzantine Catholics that once attended Holy Apostles no longer attend there. That does not include the highly probable numbers of people who is in the process of changing rites (at least around 5 people). I've asked them why they left, most of them simply said that the priests didn't care about them or whether they come or not. SUCH APATHY and INDIFFERENCE!!! That is an outrage!!! mad

Plus the current priest there is extremely Latinized...latnizing the Community...the Liturgy...the rubrics...etc. VERY SAD.

Now...there is something that NOBODY knows about for a very very looooong time. It is only very recently (less than a month ago) that I've told 5 people about what I'm about to say here. Since Holy Apostles is closing down, and to bring full closure, I think it's a very good opportunity for me now to say something out loud and it needs to be heard...people NEED to know about this:

Holy Apostles wouldn't exist so much without my persistent badgering to a former priest to get it set up. That former priest is Fr. Peter Leigh. (sigh)

I met with Fr. Peter way back in fall of 1999 and I've asked him to see about setting up a Byzantine mission in Wichita. He was going to wait a YEAR to do that...in matter of fact...it was highly likely that he was NOT EVER GOING TO DO IT!!!

Anyway...I kept bugging him to have it set up...make an announcement to see what the responses are...etc. like if it had low responses, then we'd drop it. I've bugged him for couple months...finally he kinda gave in. Sure enough he was very surprised of the overwhelming responses as a result for posting an announcement in the Roman Catholic newspaper (in Wichita).

The first service Holy Apostles ever had was Agape Vespers in 2000. The rest is history.

Now...Bishop Michael Wichwar (sp?) was the Bishop of Chicago at that time...and he was transferred out to another Eparchy not so long after that...I may be wrong...but perhaps by around late fall of 2000 or early 2001.

Now...if you recall...Fr. Peter was NOT going to do it for at LEAST a year to try it out...if he DID wait that long...and with Bishop Michael leaving at that time...Holy Apostles would NEVER have had happened at all. Of course nothing can ever happen without the bishop. Chicago didn't have a bishop for THREE years!

The reason I never said this to anybody is because I didn't want to feel like I was pretty responsible for it to happen...I gave G-d the full credit for it...and I was his instrument for it to happen. Fr. Peter was very serious about not doing it for quite a while.

Also, I've taught all adult altar servers (with one or two teens and one older kid around 10) every they know about serving.

I've taught a lot of people about Byzantine Catholicism. The community members constantly depended on me to do things for them or help them because Fr. Peter didn't care to be around to help out or whatever (SAD to say).

I poured my heart and soul all out for the community...sweat, blood, money, tears and FAITH. And so did the other co-founders.

Fast foward to 2004...Fr. Peter left...two priests took over...one was Melkite and the other was current Holy Apostles administrater a "bi-ritual" priest Fr. Joe Tatro. I don't know if he's truly a "bi-ritual" or not because I left while the Melkite priest was there because later on (after I left) the Melkite priest was transferred out. (BTW, Fr. Peter is no longer a priest, sad to say)

Basically...both priests "kicked me out" for WHATEVER reasons...which is UNKNOWN even to this very day. I've asked the priests what I did was wrong to make them "kick me out" and they REFUSED to tell me why really.

I have NOT done anything wrong...except this one very bad trouble maker who may have spreaded lies about me because he was jealous of me or something. Honest to G-d, I am innocent and I haven't done anything bad to anyone at Holy Apostles. I always was very respectful, moral, and in very good standing.

Sad to say that one of the adult altar servers were "brainwashed" by this "trouble-maker" to a point where he "laughed at me" saying that he's in charge now "ha ha ha" and I'm not (since I was kicked out). I was seriously hurt and backstabbed.

This "trouble maker" thinks he's a priest or something (he's not). He'd give me a "blessing" in a Christogram form of Cross. He'd lead Akathist service in the Community when the priests weren't there. He'd use the incensor like a priest would, and all that. Basically he's NUTS!!! CRAZY LOONEY TUNE! I've told the priests about that...they kinda dismissed me about it. Whatever. (roll eyes) eek

Of course, this "trouble maker" no longer was there...the priests realized that he was indeed causing problems and divisions.

And of course the priests never bothered to ask me to come back or ask for forgiveness or even apologized. The community was outraged...I received many letters from the community begging me to come back...they missed me...and all that. I refuse to go back until the priest make formal public apology to me for what they've done to me which I felt was very VERY cruel and unjustified.

One by one, the members of the community have left since then.

So, there you have it...the story of the life of Holy Apostles.

I'm not bitter or angry towards Holy Apostles at all. In fact, I feel sorry for them because they've gone as low as they are at and of course G-d isn't so pleased about it either.

Oh, I want to mention that the following Sunday after I left Holy Apostles (in 2004), the Melkite priest there have spilled ashes every where ON the Altar and the floor from the incenser, candles tipped over, etc. as if it was being jinxed (I won't dare say that it's because I left) but because it was happening at the expense of the priests bad actions. You know what it's about the spilling of ashes in the Old Testament. Very frightening. Wow.

I'm fully in peace with the Greek Orthodox Church as I've been to since I left Holy Apostles. The Greek community have embraced me in and out unconditionally and with full love as if I'm "one of them."

I've been in the Orthodox Church since 1992 (actually from 1992 to 1998 went occassionally because I was in college at that period of time plus working a lot and was busy with girlfriend at that time). So since 1998 I was real actively attending to Orthodox Churches on top of being part of the Holy Apostles from 2000 to 2004.

Orthodox Church has been my true home for quite a while anyway with or without Holy Apostles.

What's very VERY IRONIC...is that...(by the way I wasn't going to make an announcement until after the fact it happens)...I am going to become Orthodox on that VERY DAY Holy Apostles are offering a last Divine Liturgy. It really makes me fall on my chair when I heard about Holy Apostles here and wonder what G-d was saying. It was like, "WOW!" That's some powerful stuff.

I CANNOT wait for April 29th!!! biggrin cool

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: spdundas] #229755 04/10/07 02:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
A
Amadeus Offline
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
Holy Apostles was/is a Byzantine Catholic mission, do/did you expect the Latin Church in Wichita to give support on all fours? As it was/is, the 16 Latin parishes are saddled with their own meager resources to serve their parishioners.

I thought if one sets up a mission, the onus is on the founding members to reach out to the community to increase membership? (I am amazed that your "first" recourse was to recruit Romans to beef up the roster! This method is, to my mind, defeatist!)

The Latin bi-ritual priests who have expended time and effort to serve your mission should be shown gratitude because the responsibility of serving your mission rests first with your Byzantine Catholic Bishop and priests and not on the Latin Bishop of Wichita. If it now appears that your mission was served more by Latin bi-ritual priests, then your own Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction at that time did not give a hoot to your "problems" or simply it had no resources to serve your mission.

To top it all, you are now into the Greek Orthodox Church (attending their services while your Holy Apostles mission was languishing)?

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: spdundas] #229759 04/10/07 03:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Job Offline
Cantor
Member
Offline
Cantor
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,440
Quote
I am going to become Orthodox on that VERY DAY Holy Apostles are offering a last Divine Liturgy.


Welcome Home!!!!

I can not believe...what I am reading...I feel like I have heard this sort of situation before...clergy and heirarchy driving people away...

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Job] #229771 04/10/07 04:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
ebed melech Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,264
With all due respect to Brother Spundas, I can't help but agree with some of Amado's points. Latins are Latins. Bi-ritualism is NOT a solution - it is only a band-aid approach to the Eastern Catholic clergy shortage. We should not rely on the Latin Church to fill in the clerical cracks in our vocations pipeline. A bishop's first obligation is to the flock under his care.

When I first read your note, my thought was "there are always two sides to the story." Not that I doubt the veracity of what you shared, Spundas, but clearly something was going on and there are other perspectives out there that might give a more complete picture than the one you provide.

Setting up a mission is hard work. I have coordinated an outreach before and it was an incredible amount of labor! God bless you for trying, but be careful not to lay the full blame on the clergy or the bishop.

As to personality quirks, I think you will find them in any jurisdiction. No Church can lay sole claim to Emotional Intelligence!

As to the quirky individual you mentioned, I would question some of how this mission was set up. Was there an official mission team?...some functioning leadership body that could help coordinate activities and address issues like the one you mentioned? It seems that the clear issue is an absence of leadership all around (lay and clerical). That may be the reason why you felt as if you were banging your head against the wall with your good work and apostolic effort to little or no effect.

I was not there, but that is what it sounds like to me.

In ICXC,

Gordo

Re: Holy Apostles Byzantine Catholic Mission shut down [Re: Amadeus] #229774 04/10/07 04:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
spdundas Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 943
Originally Posted by Amadeus
Holy Apostles was/is a Byzantine Catholic mission, do/did you expect the Latin Church in Wichita to give support on all fours? As it was/is, the 16 Latin parishes are saddled with their own meager resources to serve their parishioners.

I thought if one sets up a mission, the onus is on the founding members to reach out to the community to increase membership? (I am amazed that your "first" recourse was to recruit Romans to beef up the roster! This method is, to my mind, defeatist!)

The Latin bi-ritual priests who have expended time and effort to serve your mission should be shown gratitude because the responsibility of serving your mission rests first with your Byzantine Catholic Bishop and priests and not on the Latin Bishop of Wichita. If it now appears that your mission was served more by Latin bi-ritual priests, then your own Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction at that time did not give a hoot to your "problems" or simply it had no resources to serve your mission.

To top it all, you are now into the Greek Orthodox Church (attending their services while your Holy Apostles mission was languishing)?


Hello Amadeus,

The first priority upon the founding of Byzantine Mission in Wichita was to serve the Byzantines in Wichita...which was what happened...

Bishop MICHAEL at the time or any bishop, wouldn't allow a mission to be established if there were a low number of Byzantines and that utilized on Romans to expand roster.

Holy Apostles simply existed because of the Byzantines. Romans were considered to us a "guest" which they are welcome to come.

As I said before, all but one of Byzantines have left the community mainly because of the Melkite priest (who took over Fr. Peter's place) and the current bi-ritual priest Fr. Tatro.

Sad, indeed.

I feel that the current Bishop RICHARD really doesn't care a lot about some of the mission or parishes in his Eparchy. I'm only stating that from what other people in the Eparchy have shared with me. They were frustrated with the lack of ambition to help missions or parishes with problems...and the lack of concern/care. Very sad. I'm just saying what I "FEEL" and do not have any ill feelings or disrespect to the Bishop at all.

Anyway...of course...me becoming Orthodox was not driven by the problems in the community...it was because I've been in the Orthodox Community for sooooo long that it's like "why not become one" if I'm among them all the time. Majority of my friends are Orthodox. So, it was time for me to be truly Orthodox. Another motivation behind it was because there was a positive view on Papacy on the Greek Orthodox part which made me feel with awe with the Orthodoxy even more.

I know that no place is perfect, ya know. So there's no running away involved in my part.

Back to the subject...

Majority of the Romans who go there have that same "Roman Catholic Apathy" about anybody...so they really didn't drive to get the Byzantines to return to the community. Same with the priests. They really don't care at all. It's like "it's up to you to come or not...'doesn't really matter' type of attitude." I really "don't understand" Roman Catholics. I really don't. It's so odd. Ya know?

I've always believed that the Founders of the community should be RESPECTED and held in important places in honor of respect. The Founders poured love, sweat, tears, blood, time and money into it. The Founders are the main motivation and reason behind an establishement of the Mission community. Have that same sentiments that we have for our country's Founding Fathers.

Again, the Romans in Holy Apostles (including the latter priests) really "don't care."

I would be surprised that this kind of situation happens more often than we think...because what happened at Holy Apostles is of great magnitude (having such large number of Byzantines being alienated). (sigh)

I feel so much better now saying my piece last night. I'm already at peace a long time ago about my decision about Orthodoxy. And truly, I feel that I'm not abandoning anyone, but rather gaining.

I appreciate the warm welcome.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

By the way, I wonder what will happened to all the items at the Holy Apostles that "WE" bought? (Icons, Gospel Book, candles, etc.)

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3