www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The so-called Tridentine Latin Mass

The subject title of this thread is not meant to be pejorative, it simply reflects the lack agreement as to what to refer to the pre-Novus Ordo, Latin/Roman rite as. It is called many names eg. Tridentine Latin Mass, Traditional Latin Mass, the Mass of St. Pius V, the Mass of John XXIII (reflecting his amendments in the 1962 Missal), etc.

Frankly I dislike this lack of clarity and especially the historical confusion that arises from it. I believe; especially in light of the forthcoming motu proprio that will free the Old Rite; that the name it should be called is the one that best reflects its origins and history, that best reflects its true nature:

The Holy Mass of St. Gregory the Great

I think I will begin using this name from now on when discussing the Old Rite. I would be interested in any feedback from other Latins and Easterners, both Catholic and Orthodox.

Just a Pilgrim,

Very interesting...

Perhaps you could explain the historical basis for this title? I've never liked the word "Tridentine" myself.

God bless,

Gordo

The papacy of St Gregory the Great (590-604AD) represents the final revision and arrangement of the Roman Canon. It has remained practically unchanged since then - "No pope has added to or changed the Canon since St. Gregory" says Benedict XIV (De SS. Miss� Sacr., 162). Also it is important to realise the rapid way in which the Roman Rite, from Gregory onwards, spread all over the West supplanting other liturgies most importantly the Gallican.

Trent codified the Roman Rite, it did not represent a wholesale change to the liturgy.

Just the Canon does not the Mass make. The other ceremonies and parts were subject to constant tweaking through the ages.

True but the core of the Mass remains the same. Tweaking/local variation is not the same as wholesale innovation (as opposed to liturgy by committee in relation to the NO). For example who would seriously argue (except for extremist Old-Ritualists) that the revised Nikonian liturgy of the Russian Church is not the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

The old St. Mary, Mother of God, church in Chinatown (DC - Archdiocese of Washington) calls theirs "Tridentine Latin" on the schedule. Perhaps, adding "Latin" is a little repetitive, but there are so many languages available for Mass that they want to be clear for visitors. I believe their Tridentine Mass used to be broadcast on EWTN - dunno if it still is.

(They also offer the "new" Mass in Cantonese. DC has some of the coolest Catholic churches. You can find the Mass in French, Italian, Spanish, Haitian Creole, Croatian, Polish and many other languages. And you haven't experienced fervor in a Catholic church until you have gone to the Stations on Good Friday with elderly African American Catholic ladies who are so into their faith that they weep, much like the women who must have met Jesus along the road.)

The Orthodox jurisdictions who offer this Mass call it the Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (or the DL of St. Gregory Dialogos), so you seem to be on the right track.

To those who have problems with that nomenclature, I'd suggest taking it up with the Eastern Orthodox churches who call such.

Logos - Alexis

Technically, it is accurate to refer to the "Tridentine Mass" by that name, since the missal is stated to be that mandated by the Council of Trent.

The Chinese parish is not being foolish in adding the term "Latin", since at one time in China the Tridentine Missal was used in Chinese. This was long ago, and died out; the missal of Pope Paul VI exists in Chinese translation, but by no means do all parishes in China use it - Chinese Catholics have enough troubles already.

I was in China in 1983 and naturally (or super-naturally) wanted the Eucharist. My first morning I went to the cathedral in Shanghai and said to the Administrator "volo sanctam Missam celebrare". He smiled and replied "secundum rituum nostram, antiquam?" I readily agreed, and all was well.

Later in Peking I apologized to the Bishop because my Latin was not the greatest. His Grace smiled and said "Father, you should just see what comes through here these days; your Latin is quite acceptable!".

But back to the matter of nomenclature. Sometimes these technical names become attached to something and remain, even without any particularly good reason. The Mozarabic Liturgy has absolutely no connection with the Moors, but after all these centuries there is no point in attempting to change its name to the Visigothic Liturgy.

Fr. Serge

Tridentine would be correct because the missal in question that was used by the Church of Rome for the past 500 years was codified at the Council of Trent. "Pian Mass" and the "Mass of Puis V" would also be correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass#Pope_St._Pius_V.27s_revision_of_the_liturgy

The Mass that Pope Gregory the Great used was similar but had noticable differnces (according to wikipedia at least).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tridentine_Mass

it is now confirmed that the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI will promulgate the Motu Propio issuing wider use of the Tridentine Latin Mass. This is said to be announced of the feast of Pope St. Pius V on April 30. So what should we expect to happen? if anything? will this be an open competition of the two rites Tridentine vs. Mass of Paul VI(Novus Ordo)? Will more Latin Parishes adopt the rite by order? The cardinals were said to be split over this issue but it seems the Holy Father see's the side of "the Traditionalists."

This may be very divisive for the Catholic community but it very much needed. How i personally feel about this issue is both masses are valid and even the mass of Paul VI is not even celebrated according to what Vatican II called for, infact most of what the mass is today came after the council. and for the positioning of the altar, it is best the priest pray in the same direction of the congregation, and toward east, as Christians have always done. There must be a balance between both rites(perhaps an introduction to a new rite, if God wills it).

I hope this time the stories are true, but I will believe it only when I see it. The rumours of the "imminent" decree have floated nearly every two weeks for 3 years.

Getting back to the intial thread title, I don't have a problem with the use of Tridentine Mass; Liturgy of St. Gregory is something I see as a term the Western Rite Orthodox or Anglicans use in order to remove what they see as the uncanonical council of trent from the picture. What I do have a problem wit is the use of the term novus ordo; it is only new in the same way the Tridentine Mass is new, and I think the term Novus Ordo is actually code for "suspect", and that I am not sure I agree with. I should state, lest I be seen to be Trad-bashing that the only Roman rite masses I have attended in the past two years have been traditional.

Ned

Dear Friends,

Even our Catholic Register up here has, this week, included a major article about this announcement.

As the Tridentine movement here is significant, lots are looking forward to it.

Also, I understand that there is an Old Rite Liturgy of St Peter that has the Gregorian Canon in it . . . anyone know anything about that?

Alex

A friend of mine who flew the Abbot of Fontgombault, from Albuquerque, NM to my home town told me that when Cardinal Ratzinger was leaving Fontgombault after a visit there (where they celebrate the Tridentine Mass), he turned around before getting into his vehicle and said, "There is the Roman Rite."

A few years ago, the Abbot of Fontgombault (and the prior of Clear Creek) were visiting some Poor Clare nuns in New Mexico and delivering to us an icon of St. Nicholas and one of Christ which one of his monks had written. The Abbot gave us (about 7 families and 40 children, in my home!) a talk of the monastic vocation. He then blessed the icons with a Byzantine prayer in Latin which was translated for us into English by the Prior.

Here is a link to the Clear Creek monastery:

http://www.clearcreekmonks.org/

Here is a site where you can learn all you ever wanted to know about the Byzantine Divine Liturgy of Saint Peter (but were too asleep to ask):

http://www.odox.net/Liturgy1-Peter.htm

An observation: The use of "the Mystery of Faith" in the context of the Words of the Lord, though not found in the Gospel accounts, is believed to have been placed there by Saint Peter himself. This form may very well be of Petrine origin. If so, the Roman Canon has a development beginning with the Chief Apostle and ending with Pope Saint Gregory the Great; a truly venerable antiquity. As can be seen here, this Anaphora also has an authentic Eastern setting and use.