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Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: John K] #229193
04/03/07 02:22 PM
04/03/07 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by John K

Jeff--I never meant to imply that the LPG eneded with Preterpivyj. In my experience the hymn is sung after the service is finished and doors are closed.

Hmmm? Interesting. Every Ruthenian Church I have attended ended the LPG with Preterpivyj while the doors were open and with full prostration.


Last edited by Recluse; 04/03/07 02:22 PM.
Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Recluse] #230333
04/14/07 09:40 PM
04/14/07 09:40 PM
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"Preter'pivyj" seems to have been translated into Church Slavonic from Polish, taken from the "Service of the Bitter Lamentations" (better known as "Gorzkie Żale"), which traces its origin to Warsaw's Holy Cross Church (circa 1700).

Specifically, it is a derivation of one of the closing hymns from that service:
"Któryś za nas cierpiał Rany, Jezu Chryste, zmiłuj się nad nami."

While many Ruthenian Churches may have this practice currently, it is certainly not a part of our authentic tradition - so the Metropolitan Cantor Institute (MCI) was correct, in my humble estimation, for publishing their draft of the LPG without any indication for this hymn at the conclusion of the service.

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Cantor JKF] #230334
04/14/07 09:46 PM
04/14/07 09:46 PM
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Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Do you have a link to the Polish music? I'm sure the Ukrainian Orthodox and ACROD Churches would love to know this is a "Latinization"!

Xpucmoc Bockpece! Veselego Alliluja!

HungariusCertezius

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230335
04/14/07 09:57 PM
04/14/07 09:57 PM
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Ung-Certez Offline OP
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Do Polish Roman Catholics make full prostrastions three times and say a lenten version of the Jesus prayer? Maybe they copied this from the Orthodox Ruthenians of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of the 16th century.;)

Veselego Alliluja!

HungariusCertezius


Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230336
04/14/07 09:58 PM
04/14/07 09:58 PM
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Indeed, He is Risen!

I'd invite you to Google "Któryś za nas cierpiał Rany, Jezu Chryste, zmiłuj się nad nami" and you'll get almost 300 hits. One of these websites may offer an online version of the music for this hymn in Polish.

Besides being a hymn at "Gorzkie Żale," it's also used as the last invocation of each of the Polish Stations of the Cross in some usages (which is, most likely, where our people would have picked it up.)

I would have no specific expertise on the position of the Ukrainian Orthodox or ACROD Churches on the para-liturgical hymn "Preter'pivyj," nor would I wish to speculate.

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Cantor JKF] #230337
04/14/07 10:02 PM
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So the music is exactly the same and the Polish make Eastern Christian "poklony" three times! Wow, they obviously borrowed that from their Orthodox brethren!

Veselego Allilija!

HungariusCertezius

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230381
04/15/07 09:29 AM
04/15/07 09:29 AM
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Ung-Certez Offline OP
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To all Polanized-Ruthenian Greek Catholics, Happy Divine Mercy Sunday! Wesolego Alliluja, Khryztus zmartwyczstal!
No need to celebrate Thomas Sunday, that's not part of our time-honored Zamosc Typika!

Khryztus zmartwyczstal!
U-C


Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230853
04/17/07 09:46 PM
04/17/07 09:46 PM
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I trust we all (Polanized-Ruthenian Greek Catholics) had a joyous Divine Mercy Sunday!

Wesolego Alliluja, Kryztus zmartwyczstal!

U-C

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230858
04/17/07 10:12 PM
04/17/07 10:12 PM
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U-C,

I don't understand all the fuss. They have not forbidden "Having Suffered". They have simply chosen not to print it in the books, which seems reasonable considering they aren't in the offcial typical editions published for us by Rome.

In my own parish we sing it without prostrations, but simply with bows.

Fr. Deaocn Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #230861
04/17/07 10:21 PM
04/17/07 10:21 PM
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Ung-Certez Offline OP
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The fuss is that honored hymns are being elimanated by "outsiders" reforming the liturgy. When in doubt, label any ethnic para-liturgical hymn "a Polish Latinization" in order to have a new, clean "American Recension".

U-C

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230872
04/17/07 11:16 PM
04/17/07 11:16 PM
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It's not printed in our presanctified text. It's just sung after the liturgy. It's not even printed on any handouts or anything. People just assume you know it.

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: AMM] #230874
04/17/07 11:27 PM
04/17/07 11:27 PM
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For that matter, it's fifteen words long (in English), we sing it after every Lenten service, and each parish I have served in has used a slightly different melody - which means if the MCI HAD included it, I would likely would have gotten complaints that we chose the "unauthentic version."

Honestly, U-C, I've never attended a Liturgy or Vespers at which Professor Thompson cantored which was not followed by the singing of one of our traditional hymns, often in Slavonic as well as English. I really think you're projecting onto the MCI something which isn't there.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: ByzKat] #230877
04/17/07 11:44 PM
04/17/07 11:44 PM
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Why all the reluctance to print the traditional para-liturgical hymns?

U-C

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230899
04/18/07 07:51 AM
04/18/07 07:51 AM
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The purpose of my original post was to raise an awareness of the origin of the para-liturgical hymn "Preter'pivyj" within the context of this discussion.

From what I have read, no one from either of the Commissions or the MCI has specifically suggested that the hymn should be "eliminated" where it is currently being used; furthermore, it would seem unfair for one to make that inference simply because the MCI did not print the hymn as part of their draft.

My opinion: Vespers and the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts should begin and end in prayerful silence. I have not used the hymn "Preter'pivyj" in any of the parishes that I serve, on any occasion, in the past several years - so whether it is ever printed in any book or not is of little consequence to me personally.

I'm really not sure why one of the Moderators has not stepped in, as the tone of this thread has gotten terribly nasty (which served as a good reminder to me of why I have been avoiding posting responses on the Forum for the past couple of months).

Re: Comments on Draft copy of Presanctified Liturgy?? [Re: Ung-Certez] #230901
04/18/07 07:57 AM
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Dear Ung-Certez,

Many of them ARE in print - such as all the hymns in the Marian hymnal. As I mentioned to you some time ago, I wish I had had the time to include more hymns on the MCI website, but my wife's illness has cut back the time I have been able to spend on it, so I mainly post music that cantors need and don't already have - music for Vespers and Matins, for example.

As Professor Thompson mentioned on the MCI forum, of which you're a member, in a thread titled What are other parishes planning to use for a hymnal:

Quote
It is the intention of the Inter-Eparchial Music Commission to publish a "hymnal pro-tem," which will contain most of the hymns from the Levkulic pew book. It will be published with a card-stock cover, and is intended for use until the Council of Hierarchs approves a hymnal for the use of the Byzantine Catholic Church.


Given that, and that fact that MOST of these hymns (irrespective of copyright, etc.) are already on the widely-used (and excellent) patronagechurch.com website, I decided to focus work on music for liturgical services.

You seem to be the only one saying that some Unnamed Persons are calling for hymns to be "eliminated." It IS true that the newly-promulgated books call for a return to singing the actual Communion hymn of the day, with its psalm verses, at Communion, before singing other hymns. But the Cantor's Companion assumes that paraliturgical hymns will be sung before (and often after) the Divine Liturgy. I suppose there are those on the music commission who feel that, for example, we really ought be be signing our own traditional Marian and praise hymns rather than such "real Catholic" (=Latin) hymns such as "Immaculate Mary" and "Holy God, we praise thy name"; but I haven't seen any evidence up here for your claim that mysterious forces are ordering us not to sing "O Holy Spirit" or "Divnaja Novina."

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. There IS a middle case: traditional hymns of ours which are also associated more with Western Christian devotions, such as the Sacred Heart. But even those I have never heard anyone call for removing from our churches - unlike, say, the Stations of the Cross.

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