The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
NJC89, AsOnDryLand, Joe R, FrEugene, Monik
5594 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 78 guests, and 458 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,707
Posts411,766
Members5,594
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10
Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23229
10/30/04 01:38 AM
10/30/04 01:38 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
ohio
iconophile Offline
Member
iconophile  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,790
ohio
Please understand that these are honest questions; what are the "last rites" spoken of? Is this a sacrament, as understood in the Catholic tradition, or is it more a "sacramental"?
Please, my Orthodox friends, we are not seeking unnecessary confrontation, only clarification...
-Daniel

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23230
10/30/04 03:24 AM
10/30/04 03:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
Member
Diak  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,461
Kansas/UGCC
Yes, thanks, Fr. Thomas and Alice. It seems the Church of Greece is being quite diligent in trying to return to the known tradition with respect to deaconnesses. This does not sound at all like an overt attempt at "altar girls" or similar abuses but an attempt to find a balance between the sound tradition and economia.

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23231
10/30/04 09:04 AM
10/30/04 09:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
I
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Irish Melkite  Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Massachusetts
Quote
Originally posted by Fr. Thomas:
Here's a nice page I found on the deaconess: The Historical Orthodox Deaconess
Father Thomas,

Thanks for the link.

Dave,

You have been holding out on us again wink . Nice midi file you created for the site that Father Thomas offered smile .

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23232
10/30/04 12:10 PM
10/30/04 12:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Alice Offline
Moderator
Alice  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Dear Daniel,

As Father Thomas said, 'last rites' may be a pathetic translation error. If I could see the original article in the original language, I might be able to shed some more light.

I know that you are curious and I don't think that you are being antagonistic. smile

So, let's leave that 'last rites' bit alone (actually: annointing of the sick) until I can find out more. I will also find out if it is considered sacrament or sacramental, as I am now a bit confused... I was hoping that Fr. Thomas would answer that.

Religious translations by secular writers can be so bad and innacurate! At the Olympics, the NBC commentators were talking about how all the Athenians had gone out of town for the August 15 holiday of THE ASCENSION!!!!! eek

In Christ,
Alice

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23233
10/30/04 12:25 PM
10/30/04 12:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Our Lady's slave  Offline
Member
O

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,570
Glasgow, Scotland
Quote
Originally posted by alice:
Dear Daniel,................
Religious translations by secular writers can be so bad and innacurate! At the Olympics, the NBC commentators were talking about how all the Athenians had gone out of town for the August 15 holiday of THE ASCENSION!!!!! eek

In Christ,
Alice
Oh now that is really great - but be charitable - mebbe they were RC biggrin it's a bit like the way that some folk [ who should know better :p ] use Mass and Divine Liturgy interchangeably

hmm - methinks the education of some folk stopped too soon

Anhelyna - lopsided as ever biggrin

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23234
10/30/04 02:23 PM
10/30/04 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
M
Matthew Panchisin Offline
Member
Matthew Panchisin  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
Dear Alice and Daniel,

Last rites is a bit of a misleading term for the Orthodox. Orthodoxy does not define things as they do in the west via official doctrines/dogma. The western and more modern idea of the narrowing down and limiting or enumerating is not consistent with Orthodox theology. I think it would be helpful if I use the term that Alice would be familiar with namely mysteria. If we fully understood these they would not be a "mysteria". However I should say that for human beings to pay attention to a point in time is not limiting that which transcends space and time.

During the Divine Liturgy we sing the Cherubimic Hymn; We who mystically represent the Cherubim, and sing to the life-giving Trinity the thrice-holy hymn, let us now lay aside all earthly care: that we may receive the King of all, who comes invisibly upborne by the Angelic Hosts. Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

Here is a post from Matthew Steenberg on another forum regarding the numeration of the seven sacraments.

You will forgive, I hope the interjection of a personal emotion here, but I rather avidly 'dislike' this numeration of 'seven sacraments' as regards the Orthodox Church. There is a certain degree to which this listing of the 'principal mysteries' of the faith, gleaned (as a listing) from the Roman Church in the middle ages, is helpful. But in the larger sense, such a categorization suggests a vision of the mysteries as rather scientifically defined, rigidly determined. This is foreign to Orthodoxy. The holy mysteries are vivid and cardinal points of encounter with The Mystery: the self-revealing God in Trinity. Each of those listed in 'the seven' is surely unique and cardinal to the Christian life. Yet the great Mystery of the faith is encountered 'sacramentally' -- i.e., mysteriously, directly -- in so much else: blessing with holy water, anointing with oil at Matins; these are surely sacramental. So is each and every act of veneration of an icon, or a homily.

We are the Church of 'infinite mysteries', or perhaps better, of only one Mystery that makes all of life into moments of mystery.

INXC, Matthew

Archbishop Constantine summed it up quite well when speaking about the Orthodox Church. "Everything is a Mystery, starting with the Holy Trinity and going on and on, we are confronted with so many things that are beyond the capability of our measly human brains."

Like you Alice, I don't know if the article by the press is speaking of matters accurately, but you are correct to trust in the wisdom of the Church of Greece. As you may know in the Greek Orthodox Church in America sometimes the Priest will give a bit of Holy Oil to a family member to anoint someone who could not make it to Church for a service. Those Ya ya's in Greece
sometimes go to monasteries for Holy Oil, I know one that brings me some just about every time she goes.

We can read in James 5:14,15 "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven."

I have to go now.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23235
10/30/04 11:59 PM
10/30/04 11:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Alice Offline
Moderator
Alice  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Dear Matthew,

Quote
As you may know in the Greek Orthodox Church in America sometimes the Priest will give a bit of Holy Oil to a family member to anoint someone who could not make it to Church for a service. Those Ya ya's in Greece
sometimes go to monasteries for Holy Oil, I know one that brings me some just about every time she goes.

This ofcourse, I do know. I am not a yiayia, (grandmother) but I have also gone to monasteries for holy oil, and have been told by the monks or nuns that I can use it in annointing...such as the holy oil from St. Nektarios shrine in Aegina, Greece. I have even sent this to others in illness...which makes me think that it is a sacramental.

This sacramental use is what I believe was meant for the deaconesses to do. If so, there is no more scandal in them doing that, then in me annointing my loved ones with holy oil.

On the other hand, in the MYSTERY/sacrament of Holy Unction, ideally the priest and only the priest should be the one to administer the euchalaion, such as when called to hospital or on Holy Wednesday, as this heals us from the illness of both body AND SOUL, aka: sin.

Does this sound right? confused

If so, I think this should help clear up the understanding of the ridiculous translation of 'last rites' for our beloved Catholic brethren.

Oh, the havoc improper translations wreak!!! frown

With love in Christ,
Alice

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23236
10/31/04 02:06 AM
10/31/04 02:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
M
Matthew Panchisin Offline
Member
Matthew Panchisin  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
Deear Alice,

It sounds right to me. However I'm not clear on what a Deaconess can do and can't do as Father Thomas had mentioned Quote; "Yes, their function is in dispute, both liturgically and charitably."

This is understandable for they have not been around for many centuries. Having said that I'm quite sure the Hierarchs of the Church of Greece can fiqure these things out.

I've seen some Icons of Deaconesses and I will be very happy to meet one in person one day. I think it is wonderful. I'm with Alex on this one!

Quote; "Bring on the Deaconesses, I say!"

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23237
10/31/04 02:51 AM
10/31/04 02:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,502
West Coast
Stephanos I Offline
Member
Stephanos I  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,502
West Coast
If the Church of Greece has truly "ordained" deaconesses, then any attempt at reunion is pointless. And then I suppose we should just try to convert them.
Stephanos I

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23238
10/31/04 03:46 AM
10/31/04 03:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
M
Matthew Panchisin Offline
Member
Matthew Panchisin  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
Dear Father Stephanos,

It seems you think this is a divisive issue, I guess you will have to wait and see what the Bishop of Rome has to say to the Church of Greece on the matter. However, I don't think the Church of Greece will pay much attention.

Since it is part of the ancient Eastern Tradition and Rome had no problem with Deaconesses for many centuries why would it be a problem now. I thought Rome's thinking was along the lines of let the Eastern Rite Catholics in Communion with Rome return to or keep their traditions?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23239
10/31/04 10:48 AM
10/31/04 10:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 441
McKees Rocks, PA
Fr. Thomas Offline
Member
Fr. Thomas  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 441
McKees Rocks, PA
Quote
Originally posted by alice:

So, let's leave that 'last rites' bit alone (actually: annointing of the sick) until I can find out more. I will also find out if it is considered sacrament or sacramental, as I am now a bit confused... I was hoping that Fr. Thomas would answer that.
The distinction of sacrament or sacramental is a western concept alien to Orthodoxy. The so-called "seven sacraments" is a concept borrowed from the west but theologically speaking difficult to defend.

Quote
On the Sacraments The practice of counting the sacraments was adopted in the Orthodox Church from the Roman Catholics. It is not an ancient practice of the Church and, in many ways, it tends to be misleading since it appears that there are just seven specific rites which are "sacraments" and that all other aspects of the life of the Church are essentially different from these particular actions. The more ancient and traditional practice of the Orthodox Church is to consider everything which is in and of the Church as sacramental or mystical.

Yes, there is a distinction between the sacrament of Holy Unction, which is traditionally served by seven priests (although rather impractical except during Holy Week) and annointing of the sick during a more routine hospital visit. I would say there is nothing really stopping anyone from annointing anyone else with oil, blessed or otherwise. Many people keep holy oil in their icon corners, or say, oil from a myrrh streaming icon fo such occassions. I have many parishioners whom I have given cotton swabs with such oils from various places (lampadas from this or that saint, etc...) to annoint the sick, especially if I cannot be there. In such a case they would not serve the service of Holy Unction of course, but they could pray the prayers of healing and annoint them "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" or "for the healing of soul and body." Do we not use holy water in the same manner in our homes?

In the same vein, such things as the blessing of water, the monastic tonsure, the burial of the dead, all of these things have the character of being a sacrament or sacramental (not using the term in the Western sense), although they are not numbered among the seven.

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23240
10/31/04 12:28 PM
10/31/04 12:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Alice Offline
Moderator
Alice  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Father Thomas Bless!

Thank you for your post. I guess I did get it basically right! (I wonder why we don't have seven priests in the Greek Orthodox Church on Holy Wednesday?)

Kissing your right hand, Alice
**************************************************

Father Stephanos Bless!

With all due respect to your holy priesthood, is there any more harm to this benign function of a high status nun praying for the sick, (as *I* as a lay person am also allowed to do) and administering her love and charity to society (like Mother Theresa)--- and is this any more impediment to unity than the Roman Church allowing LAY females to administer the Holy Eucharist? (which disturbs many people, even IN the Roman Catholic Church)

Think about it.

Kissing your right hand, Alice
**************************************************

Dear Matthew,

Thanks for the post. This was truly a case of us being in complete symphonia (agreement). smile

In Christ,
Alice

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23241
10/31/04 01:06 PM
10/31/04 01:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
Alice Offline
Moderator
Alice  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,909
USA
P.S. Dear Father Stephanos,

Quote
If the Church of Greece has truly "ordained" deaconesses, then any attempt at reunion is pointless. And then I suppose we should just try to convert them.
Stephanos I
I don't know if you read my post to you of a couple of days ago on this thread, but this had *absolutely nothing* to do with the ugly feminist agendas which we encounter here. Feminism is just not an issue in Greece. The type of dissident Roman Catholic nuns which you may be thinking of here are unknown in Greece. The nuns there wouldn't think of wearing lay clothes, or of caring about liberal/feminist 'rights'. They are the most humble and subservient women I have ever met. Not all are old either! I know of one U.S. convert nun, a Harvard Graduate, a first cousin of a well known young rock group, who is a nun serving in a monastery outside Athens! The abbess of that monastery is also a convert, and the niece of the Mayor of a German city! They fit the bill of humble and subservient to a 'T', despite their wordly credentials--and they don black robes, headdress and all!

So, I think that this restoration of deaconesses is about addressing a shortage of priests available to remote monasteries and a need in the community.

As I said in that post, I would be the first to scream 'the sky is falling' if such a thing were addressed by any Orthodox jurisdiction here. Infact, my problem is not with the Church of Greece, who I KNOW is highly conservative, and their particular decisions, but how this will affect the liberal minded Orthodox *here in the U.S* who may find it opportune for their agenda.

With all due respect, perhaps you could answer just a little more charitably, and with a little more conversation, rather than just writing dire predictions and statements which could be construed as being judgemental? I have always supported you and respected you, and your responses are a bit hurtful because they seem to dismiss everything I say, though I believe that I know just a little more of the different religious situation and mindset there. frown

Please forgive me if I have offended.

Humbly in Christ,
Alice

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23242
10/31/04 01:23 PM
10/31/04 01:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
OrthoMan Offline
Member
OrthoMan  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
Philadelphia, PA
I think I may have posted this before in another conversation regarding the role of the Deaconess. It's taken from "A Dictionary Of Early Christian Beliefs" -

Apostolic Constitution compiled c. 390:Deaconess

7.431 - Ordain also a deaconess who is faithful and holy for the ministrations towards women for sometimes the bishop cannot send a deacon (who is a man) to the women, on account of unbelievers. You should therefore send a woman, a deaconess, on account of the imaginations of the bad. For we stand in need of a woman, a deaconess, for many necessities. For example, in the baptism of women, the deacon will anoint only their forhead with the holy oil. And after him, the deaconess will anoint them. For there is no necessity that a woman should be seen by the men.

7.494 - A deaconess does not bless, nor does she perform anything belonging to the office of presbyters or deacons. Rather, she is only to keep the doors and to minister to the presbyters in the baptising of women, for the saake of decency.

7.410 - Let not any woman addresss herself to the deacon or bishop without the deaconess.

7.457 - Let the deaconess be a pure virgin. Or, at the minimum, let her be a widow who has been married only once and who is faithful and well esteemed.

========

OrthoMan

Re: Orthodox Church of Greece to Allow Deaconesses #23243
10/31/04 06:23 PM
10/31/04 06:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
M
Matthew Panchisin Offline
Member
Matthew Panchisin  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 203
Unitied States
Dear Alice,

As you well know Rome sometimes understands things very differently than the Orthodox, and we are not always saying the same thing even if we would like that to be so. If you read the last sentence of the below text from the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia you'll see what I mean. Do bear in mind that there are many Deaconess Saints that I'm sure would not agree with the notion that the functions they performed should be placed in a suggested abuse box. It's an insult because an inclusive part of who these Saints are is being deaconesses.

Functions of Deaconesses

(There can be no doubt that in their first institution the deaconesses were intended to discharge those same charitable offices, connected with the temporal well being of their poorer fellow Christians, which were performed for the men by the deacons. But in one particyular, viz., the instruction and baptism of catechumens, their duties involved service of a more spiritual kind. The universal prevelance of baptism by immersion and the annointing of the whole body which preceded it , rendered it a matter of propriety that in this ceremony the functions of the deacons should be discharged by women. The Didascalia Apostolorum (III, 12; see Funk, Didascalia, etc., I, 208) explicitly direct that the deaconesses are to perform this function. It is probable that this was the starting point for the intervention of women in many other ritual observances even in the sanctuary. The Apostolic Constitutions expressly attribute to them the duty of guarding the doors and maintaining order amongst those of their own sex in the church, and they also (II, c. 26) assign to them the office of acting as intermediaries between the clergy and the women of the congregation; but on the other hand, it is laid down (Const. Apost., VIII, 27) that "the deaconess gives no blessing, she fulfills no function of priest or deacon", and there can be no doubt that the extravagances permitted in some places, especially in the churches of Syria and Asia, were in contravention of the canons generally accepted. We hear of them presiding over assemblies of women, reading the Epistle and Gospel, distributing the Blessed Eucharist to nuns, lighting the candles, burning incense in the thuribles, adorning the sanctuary, and anointing the sick (see Hefele-LeClercq, II, 448). All these things must be regarded as abuses which ecclesiastical legislation was not long in repressing.)

Do woman do any of these things that they are regarding as abuses in the Latin Church or Orthodox Church?

I know woman read the Epistle in the Latin Church for example in fact right smack in front of the Bishop of Rome on many occassions.

So the question is what is really happening here?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Page 4 of 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 7.1.30 Page Time: 0.036s Queries: 14 (0.008s) Memory: 2.6465 MB (Peak: 2.7612 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-07-17 04:55:42 UTC