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All I can say is that there are also texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men, what are we to believe concerning them?
yes lex orandi lex credendi, but use some common sense too!
Stephanos I

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Originally posted by Stephanos I:
All I can say is that there are also texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men, what are we to believe concerning them?
yes lex orandi lex credendi, but use some common sense too!
Stephanos I
I didn't know that! I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since craziness is not an invention of recent centuries. It's been around since the days of the early Church.

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Originally posted by Stephanos I:
All I can say is that there are also texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men, what are we to believe concerning them?
yes lex orandi lex credendi, but use some common sense too!
Stephanos I
Well, either your position is completely uninformed, or you're baiting those who may be ignorant?

You're comparing apples and oranges. The office of deaconess was a role in the church from the time of the bible. The text that I posted is competely legitimate, historically accurate and completely Orthodox, but has largely fallen out of disuse for many reasons, although, as has been stated SO MANY TIMES on this board that I'm rather sick of restating it, there have been deaconesses even in relatively modern times. The historicity of it is UNQUESTIONABLE. If you wanna call the earth flat, be my guest.

The texts that you refer to, about the union of two men to become "brothers," IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN about gay marriage. What we are to believe about those texts is the purpose for which they were originally written and nothing else. Same for the texts concerning deaconesses. Sounds like basic logic to me.

Using *your* logic, we would have to make suspect the bible itself since people go around misinterpreting and misusing that all the time.

Priest Thomas

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Originally posted by Stephanos I:
All I can say is that there are also texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men, what are we to believe concerning them?
yes lex orandi lex credendi, but use some common sense too!
Stephanos I
Supposedly is the key word here. Those texts are unlike the texts for the ordination of deaconess in that the deaconess is contemplated in the canons of the church and there is ample historic reference to their existence and their existence does not constitute any moral problem.

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Dear Stephanos,

Please smarten up - soon!

Thank you.

Alex

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Dear Charles,

The text Stephanos is referring to has NOTHING to do with gay marriage.

Apologists for that lifestyle have even compiled lists of "gay saints" such as, in their ill-informed opinion, Sts. Sergius and Bacchus (!).

They also make BLASPHEMOUS suggestions about St John and his leaning on Christ's Chest during the Mystical Supper!!!

Stephanos should TRY and not repeat the nonsense he hears in his immediate environment in an effort to discredit what cannot be discredited - the existence of the non-sacerdotal order of deaconesses in the Church, both in the past and in the present.

He is entitled to his opinions - and the rest of us are entitled to not having to hear them constantly rehashed.

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Charles,

The text Stephanos is referring to has NOTHING to do with gay marriage.

Apologists for that lifestyle have even compiled lists of "gay saints" such as, in their ill-informed opinion, Sts. Sergius and Bacchus (!).

They also make BLASPHEMOUS suggestions about St John and his leaning on Christ's Chest during the Mystical Supper!!!

Stephanos should TRY and not repeat the nonsense he hears in his immediate environment in an effort to discredit what cannot be discredited - the existence of the non-sacerdotal order of deaconesses in the Church, both in the past and in the present.

He is entitled to his opinions - and the rest of us are entitled to not having to hear them constantly rehashed.

Alex
Thanks Alex. But what are those texts about, since I have never heard of them before? Fr. Thomas just said they were about two men becoming "brothers." Is that like brothers in a monastic order, or something else?

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Dear all,

Well, I was just writing this and see that some reasonable responses have emerged.

Nevertheless for further clarification, Father Stephanos introduces for our consideration the notion of submitting "texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men" as morally corresponding behavior to the function of a Deaconess or the action of ordaining a Deaconess. Either way this sort of reasoning should be rejected and dismissed for they are not of the same yolk. The behavior of a Deaconess relative to what a deaconess does as a deaconess is a honorable service to the rational flock of the Church and Christ, hence it is morally correct. The partnering of men is a sin and the "texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men" is an expression from those that are promoting sin, relative to what a homosexual does and the "texts which also supposedly support the partnering of men" is blatant distortion and a expression from those that present sinful behavior as not sinful behavior.


The aforementioned notion is much more than a twisting. I can't recall the exact scripture now but something along the lines of how woeful it is when that which is vile is considered honorable or good, and that which is good is considered to be not good. I think it is in the Psalms somewhere.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Originally posted by Matthew Panchisin:

However males or Deacons often become Priest's, it is sort of a stepping stone so to speak, this has always been the tradition.
Matthew,

I would agree with most of what you said, except I would just tweak the above a bit.

I would say that it is a much better understanding to not think of the dicaonate as a "stepping stone" at all, although indeed, the progression is such that one must be a deacon before being a priest. And yes, there are many more priests than deacons, in both east and west. But I think we should also acknowledge that this is not by design. The book of Acts makes clear that there was a plurality of deacons in certain communities. (By the way, there was also a plurality of presbyters in many places, all surrounding one bishop in each community! Our model today, of course, is different.)

However, and I think this is clear in the scriptures, these offices exist (deacon, presbyter, bishop) not to somehow progress "through" them, as some kind of a rest stop on the way to the "top," but rather each is a full and valid and useful ministry in and of itself. There are a variety of gifts, but one Spirit! The bishops are the overseers (episcopos), the priests are the elders (presbyteros) and rulers (proistamenos), and the deacons are the servants (diaconos). All of them have important functions within the community. For the deacon, the book of Acts shows that they were to "serve tables" so that the Apostles could devote themselves to "teaching and preaching." Everyone had a function, and the deacons were not ordained simply to be "on the road to the priesthood."

(I had a conversation at my secular job with someone, with whom I shared the pictures of the 90th Anniversary of my parish [oca.org] . She asked, "do you have aspirations to reach the top?" I said, "I am where I'm supposed to be.")

So I guess my point is, it is actually much healthier to see the offices in this sense, because it will also reduce the temptation to think of the female deacon as somehow progressing to something "higher." She is what she is, a servant of other women, I am what I am, my bishop is what he is, and we are all functioning to manifest the fullness of ministries in the body of Christ.

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I am glad that I stirred up so much controversy!
But believe me I never said I was in support of any such possition.
My point was exactly that, that many appeal to texts to quote "prove" there case.
It was and never will be the intention of the Catholic Church to "ordain" deconesses because whatever you call them, even those quotes from Scripture, they were never Deacons in the sense of an ordained ministry.
I would suggest that those who support such a position, further there investigations as to the meaning of the term "deaconesses" both in Scripture and the life of the Church, and yes I do admit they existed. Im only questioning what a group of modernist, are trying to imply by it.
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Well, then I think it behooves to you enlighten us, not with what deaconesses weren't, but what they were. If you admit to the existence of deaconesses, could you please explain the function of deaconesses in the early church, and why they were (choose your own term here) set apart, blessed, ordained, laying on of hands, whatever... at the altar? What was the purpose of this happening at the altar, or that they communed at the altar, at least on the day of their being set apart, blessed, ordained, laying on of hands, whatever...?

It's so easy to make these blanket statements about "what they weren't" and "modernism" but I'm not hearing a lot of specifics here, only broad and unsubstantiated accusations.

Also, it would be helpful to have your name at the end of the posts. Your profile says "clergy." Would that be priest, bishop, deacon, or candle bearer? And of what church? Where? A full name would be helpful, especially for those who are clergy.

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I plan to give a full explanation as to the role of deaconess and its historical development. But at this time I am too busy with my many duties of a parish over 4000 families.
To start an appeal to the NT for those who would advocate the ordination of women is futile.
The term in the NT was not as developed and defined as the term deacon in the Church today. It simply meant servant.
The term deaconess is only used once in the entire Scriptures and that is in Rom 16. (Diakonon).
As to the rest I will post later.
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Dear Father Thomas,

Thank you for the tweaking. I didn't mean to convey a climbing of the ladder sort of a notion. You are correct to mention that serving the Church is good and honorable in any capacity that is pleasing to God.

Dear Father Stephanos,

We are not unlearned and incapable of reasonable investigations of a subject matter which is prudent even before we say anything that might be misunderstood as a display of ignorance by the issuers unreasonable statements, perhaps to the detriment or dismay of others.

I found Father Knows Best to be a good show conveying a reasonable understanding of morality to the audience. I suppose those had been the good old days when some subjects would not receive any air time because of the effects that such subjects might have on the re viewers.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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Dear Father Stephanos,

I'm bracing myself. Do keep in mind that in the east we do not confer a priestly ordination on women, so to speak.

You can count the number of times that the word or term deaconess is used in the Scriptures, but you might want to understand that Saint Paul was also addressing Deaconess when he wrote to numerous Churches. We can conclude this because they had been in the "community" of the Church. He may not have been addressing them by spelling out who they are in those addresses nor did he address the "tall" people in the community directly.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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