Fr. Serge, do you deny the fact that there was a movement in the Roman Catholic Church to do away with the Eastern Rite?

Just curious...

I would be downright certain that no Roman Catholic parish in the USA has joined the Western Rite Orthodox movement - if only because the properties of the parishes are securely tied to the local Roman Catholic diocese. It proved possible in the nineteen-twenties and nineteen-thirties to pry a few Greek-Catholic parishes loose, but it took a hard court fight. The only Roman Catholic parish that succeeded in doing this, to the best of my knowledge, is Our Lady of the Rosary Polish National Catholic Cathedral in Buffalo - and that was a quite special case; it had been founded and built as an independent church, then joined the Diocese of Buffalo for a while, then decided to leave and join Bishop Hodur's movement. The Diocese of Buffalo thought that it had tied the parish to the diocese, but with another hard court fight the parishioners won against the diocese - the courts tend to govern their decisions by the original founding documents, whatever may have been done later.

[Please note: I am neither criticizing nor defending these arrangements; I state these facts purely for information.]

Fr. Serge

Subdeacon Borislav asks if I deny that there was a movement within the Roman Catholic Church to put an end to Eastern Catholicism. I don't deny it in the least; I'm well aware of it (cf. Father Korolevsky's study Uniatism, which I've already mentioned.

One can easily find Roman Catholics today who either don't know that any sort of Eastern Catholicism exists, or who do know it and think it should be got rid of. Fortunately, that opinion does not govern. But I'm also well aware that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Fr. Serge

What is to be denied? That some parties have wanted this? Or that even some modern Romans in their ecumenical sensibilities are bothered we even still exist?

A few years back I had dealing with a "traditionalist" Latin who had expressed his own private opinion that only the 1962 Latin Mass had any place in the Catholic Church. Of course his private minority opnionion was just that - a private opinion.

But that these parties exist or existed proves little if anything. I am actually curious as to where you are going with this. Can pointing to people who have wanted to "do away with the Eastern Rite?" prove or demonstrate anything save a pluraility of perspectives?

Absolutely.

When the Orthodox Church took the Western Rite under her wing, She did not look to gradually do away with the Latin Rite transforming the faithful into Byzantine Rite Orthodox Christians.

Rome, especially in the case of my homeland Ukraine planned from the vest start to gradually Latinize Ukrainians and later do away with the Eastern Rite.

That is one of the most fundamental differences between these two very distinct "Uniate" movements.

There is nothing about them that is the same.

You will not hear any Orthodox Bishop say that there is no grace in the Latin Rite, however you will hear such talk from numerous Roman Catholic Clergy members.

Just listen to what Latin Catholics say, even to this day about White Clergy....

So contrary to what you may think, the fact that parties in Roman Catholicism still to this day think of Byzantine Catholics as second rate and the fact that the original intent was to do away with Eastern Rite proves my point rather well.

Apples and Oranges...

Western Orthodoxy appears to be a completely voluntary movement involving Anglicans (and a few other Protestant groups), who decided to become Orthodox Christians. As an Eastern Catholic I do not see anything wrong with it.

Subdeacon Borislav,

The Polish government and Latin hierarchy may have wanted to Polonize and Latinize the Byzantine Catholics within their realm, but to say:

"Rome, especially in the case of my homeland Ukraine planned from the vest start to gradually Latinize Ukrainians and later do away with the Eastern Rite."

is untrue and proven false by history. Had Rome truly wanted this they could have easily accomplished it. On the contrary, Rome, in her way, was and is fairly supportive of the Eastern Catholic Churches, and while unofficially she turned her head to the greater part of the self-Latinization they adopted, officially she produced some of the best editions of Liturgical books for the Eastern Churches ever produced and since Vatican II has consistently called on them to de-Latinize.

I will not argue that some Latin Catholics, including clergy, would rather be rid of us, but I have never heard any clergy state we do not have grace, nor publicly deride. On the otherhand Orthodox bishops have gone on record as being opposed to the Western Rite, one even to the point of refusing to allow their clegy to concelebrate or participate in Western Rite services.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Serge,

Quote:
"One can easily find Roman Catholics today who either don't know that any sort of Eastern Catholicism exists, or who do know it and think it should be got rid of."

I will agree one can easily find Roman Catholics who don't know that Eastern Catholics exist but to easily find those who think the Catholic Church should be rid of them is a stretch.

In Christ,
Bill

Dear Subdeacon Borislav,

Quote:
"You will not hear any Orthodox Bishop say that there is no grace in the Latin Rite, however you will hear such talk from numerous Roman Catholic Clergy members."

I can't say I've heard this from any Orthodox bishops but I have heard this from Orthodox clergy.

In the above quote you said "numerous Roman Catholic clergy", I simply find that to be balderdash.

In Christ,
Bill

Dear Apotheoun,

I find this to be the best post in this thread, and your thoughts can include numerous Roman Catholics too.

In Christ,
Bill

I hope that I have not given the impression that I have anything whatever against Western Rite Orthodoxy - actually I think it's a good idea; such pluralism and such recognition that the tradition of the West (even before the schism) has enduring significance and validity can be quite beneficial.

Now to Subdeacon Borislav's latest:



Proof, please? I know of no evidence to support this assertion, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, despite popular mythology, the Union of Brest was a project of the Metropolitan and the Bishops. It was not the invention of the Polish government, or of the Holy See. Both the government and the Holy See were not fully convinced that it could succeed, but decided, albeit with less than full enthusiasm, to take the risk.

High on the list of motives for the Metropolitan and the Bishops was the realization that the Ecumenical Patriarch was in no position to be of effective help in resolving the problems of the Church of Kyiv, while the Pope of Rome looked like a possible source of support.

The Polish government - unlike Rome - certainly hoped that the Union of Brest would prove to be a "bridge" over which Belarusyn and Ukrainian Orthodox Christians would travel, gradually, to beomce Polish Roman Catholics. Ironically enough, this worked as Poland wanted it to work in Belarus and in the Kholm Region - thanks to the short-sighted policy of the Tsars who mistakenly believed that if the Greek-Catholic Church were destroyed, the people would become Russian Orthodox. They didn't; they became Polish Catholics (right now in Belarus the Poles are distributing prayer-books and so on in Polish printed in the Belarusyn-Cyrillic alphabet).

In Galicia and Subcarpathia, it was different. In Galicia particularly the Greek-Catholic Church developed and grew stronger, and proved to be the bulwark of Ukrainian religious and national consciousness.

So blame Warsaw if you wish, but holding Rome responsible for Warsaw has no basis.

Fr. Serge

Just a quick "Thank-you! Father" for your participation in this thread. It is helpful to me and I am sure others as well.

Mary

I re-read the original post in this thread, and I do not see how the rise of the Eastern Catholic Churches, which took place centuries ago, has any bearing upon a person's experience (or lack thereof) of Western Rite Orthodoxy.

Dear Fr. Serge, it seems that you are contradicting yourself a great deal even on this thread.

First you attack Western Orthodox with you "horse laugh" and "fool's medal" comments. Now you are saying that you think this is a good idea.

One minute, you agree that there was a movement in the Roman Catholic Church to do away with the Eastern Rite and now you are asking for proof.

There is a tremendous amount of HISTORICAL proof of Poland invading and attempting to Latinze Ukraine with the blessing of Rome. In fact the union of Ukraine and Russia was signed by Bohdan Hmelnistsky as a direct result of Polish attempts to Latinize my homeland.

As for blaming Warsaw.... Come on Father, do you think that a devout Catholic Country like Poland would try to pull this without the blessing of the Vatican?

Fr. Deacon Lance stated that Rome could have Latinzed Ukraine if she had truly wanted this, and I submit to you that this is completely 100% untrue. If pressed most Eastern Catholics would have probably gone back to Orthodoxy rather than have the Latin rite forced on them. The parties interested in doing away with the Eastern Rite knew that they had to do this slowly with seemingly unimportant changes.

As for proof one only has to read that tiny article I already sent you a link to, to see what many Roman Catholics thought and still think about their Eastern Brothers.

As for the Antimins incident, I assure you that it is a fact. I can not name any names due to the instructions of my spiritual Father, as He thinks this may hurt people still in the fold of the Orthodox Church.

Rcquest, when I said that no Orthodox Clergy member would claim there was no grace in the Latin Rite, I was speaking of the Western Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. I would be shocked to hear any Orthodox Priest making such statements as the Antiochian Orthodox Church is fully Canonical and a part of SCOBA.

The entire concept of Western Rite Orthodoxy is extremely interesting, yet at the same time, a very sad story. It is my belief that Western Rite Orthodoxy or, WRO, for brevity's sake, is a response based on Pastoral concern, rather than as an evangelistic tool. Both the actions of the Antiochian Church, and ROCOR's efforts with the French and Dutch Orthodox Churches were done in response to petitions from the laity, as opposed to a deliberate attempt to "set up shop" to compete with Rome. Not that that would be all that difficult. If that was the desire, the hard core Latin Trads would be a good target. Set them up, turn their altars around, let them commemorate the local Orthodox bishop and Pope Leo the Great if they want, and voila!, competition with Rome. Or with Old Catholics or Polish National Catholics. But that has not been the case. There is not now, nor has there ever been a deliberate attempt on the part of the Orthodox to "poach" from Rome. WRO churches have been small localized responses to the needs of a small group of people, usually Anglicans or other high church Protestants who want to maintain their traditions, but under canonical bishops. Similar to "Greek Tradition" parishes under a Russian bishop, but with even greater differences. When Poland was a duchy of Russia, the great Roman Catholic cathedrals all remained Roman Catholic under the protection of the Czar. The Orthodox line stopped where traditionally, it had always stopped, at the Tatras. History has proven to be not so kind to the Orthodox finding themselves under a Roman Catholic Monarchy after political shuffling of borders. The treatment of the Ukrainian and Carpatho Russian Orthodox under the Magyars speaks volumes. But that is history. For good or bad, what happened, happened, whether it be the 17th or 20th century. But we are now in the 21'st century, and the need is to look ahead. The "My dzedushka whipped your dzedushka" business only leads to heightened levels of polemics, which benefit no one. Especially the poor WRO, who are the left handed stepchildren of the Orthodox world, who are so different and so misunderstood by most of their coreligionists, with bishops who do not fully understand their traditions, and with Eastern laity and clergy who, ever so slightly, look down just a bit on them as being "different". So let's not be so hard on them. I rejoice when I hear of a Saint Alban's or a St David Of Wales Orthodox Church being raised. It is awakening an old Tradition that has lain dormant for a long time. These people need our prayers and our assistance, not our judgements.

Alexandr