Goodness, Fr Serge ... It probably would have been sufficient simply to give your argument rather than berate and heap scorn upon fellow Christians who have found a little niche somewhere in the universal Church.

I hope that we could all agree that both Western Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism are far from ideal (there are problems, ambiguities, and inconsistencies in both phenomena), but they are both populated by well-meaning folks who don't deserve a "loud horse laugh" or a "fools gold medal."

Bless, Father Archimandrite!

Well, I meant "Uniate" in the pejorative sense of the word when it is used in that way.

How would you define a "Uniate?"

Alex the Fool

I agree with you venite.

"a loud horse laugh" and "a fools gold medal".....

Very nice.....

Fr, since you seem to be such an expert on "fools gold medals" maybe you can tell me where I can get one to.



I find it interesting that it is ok to call these people Uniates, while calling Greek Catholics Uniates is a bannable offense.

There is no double standard here! What double standard?

bump--changed my mind.

Alexis,

Yes, clarified, my spirituality & prayer rule...

james

I've found www.westernorthodox.blogspot.com to be very interesting! The author's demeaning remarks about certain Catholic saint-scholastics and the Church aside, he does some very interesting comparisons of liturgy, praxis, and devotion between West and East.

Alexis

AHHHH young grasshopper I have much to teach you. There is nothing wrong with western rite Orthodox parishes. Rome hasn't always controlled those who use a western style liturgy. You kilt wearing Orthodox Rusyn Irishman should know all about what happened in the British Isles......

That video just talks about the "I." I this, I that, it makes me feel like this. Who cares, tell us about the church and it's liturgy not about how individuals are satisfied (it's not a restaurant or a mall) and are happy, they can save their feelings for confession or therapy, as it makes it look like they were consumers.

ROFL

Ridiculous.

Clearly my friend you know nothing of Slavic History.

There have been numerous attempts to Latinize both Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Christians. This has been undertaken by Poland with complete backing of Rome. In fact Lzhe-Dmitry was installed as Emperor of Russia with the help of a prominent Polish family which sought to make Russia a Polish principality with the ultimate goal of complete and total annihilation of the Eastern Rite.

Comparing Greek Catholics in the Ukraine to Western Orthodox in the USA is like comparing Apples and Oranges.

How would I define a Uniate? I wouldn't, personally, but I will happily recommend the lengthy but clear definition offered by Father Cyril Korolevsky in his magnificent study Uniatism. Ernst Suttner also does a highly acceptable job. The trouble is that it seems to be impossible for the Orthodox to tell us what, precisely, they are objecting to in any form that would hold water for five minutes.

As for those who desire a "fools' gold medal", no doubt we could commission one and have it made someplace where such things are not overly costly.

The reason why the repetition of the claim that Western Orthodoxy has nothing "Uniate" about it got my goat is that this is repeated in Orthodox - Catholic dialogue meetings. What's sauce for the goose, evidently, is not sauce for the gander.

As to the assertion that no one used coercive force to dragoon people into Western Orthodoxy, one might remember the remarkably honest statement of a Methodist spokesman, who said that he was very proud that the Methodists had never and nowhere used state power to compel anyone to join them - but he had to acknowledge that the Methodists never had such an opportunity!

Just to engage in a little honesty myself: the Vatican found the Moscow Patriarchate's Western Rite operation in Italy to be an annoyance, and complained about it. The Moscow Patriarchate stopped - need I remind anyone that the Greek-Catholic Church is now alive and well and highly visible in what Moscow considers (incorrectly) to be Moscow's patch?

Paul VI was remarkably foolish. The handful of Western Rite Orthodox parishes in Italy was of no serious importance; Rome could safely have ignored it.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge, Christ is Risen!

Maybe because the overwhelming majority of those in Western Orthodoxy came from the Anglican communion originally, I believe statistically 9 to 1 as opposed to Roman Catholicism. I am also unaware of any complete parishes that have left the Roman fold for Western Orthodoxy, only individuals and clergy. I do not think the same claim can be reciprocated.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

In the first place, is "uniatism" so the label speaks, is it not more political than religious?

I mean like, "We are of nation X, we identify ourself as Orthodox, it is our identity. It is expressed in our Liturgy, custom, etc. Now you are once with us, but now you unite with those Catholics. You are not one of us anymore, you you should stop being Orthodox. That means you should stop doing Orthodox Liturgy, prayers, cutoms etc. and adopt those of the Latins. Otherwise, sever your communion and union with them and close yourself from any Latin influence. But wanted being spiritualy Orthodox but maintain communion with the Latins is despicable. It is like a spy who claim to be with us but against us. That is why we label you 'Uniates' so everyone know you are not among us, you are traitors (in national political and religious level, since our religiousity is our identity)."

Of course my impression might be wrong. And things changed, religious identity may not serve nationalism as strong as it used to be. But then, the label doesn't cease to exist because we are used to it....

Father I could be opening myself up to a whole world of hurt with this... But heck, I did buy abottle of extra Strencth Tyelenol this week...

But perhaps it would be good to give a little historical info on the MP's efforts in Italy. I know almost nothing of the effort save that there WAS an effort... But who spearheaded it, how it was run, who it targeted... From what I know of the efforts of some WR enthusiasts and practicioners, there has been a good deal of colorful characters associated with it in different places and different times. In some efforts de-frocked Romans and some rather "iffy" Old Catholic parties have begged, borrowed, cajoled and otherwise engratiated themselves into and under the omophor of more than a couple of well-meaning canonical hierarchs.

However much some are annoyed with how many hoops an Anglican priest must jump through to be ordained a Catholic priest under the Pastoral Provision, some Easterners have been all too quick to take some groups under their wing.

Do we know much about the priests in the Italian Western Rite?

And to remember what the circumstances of the Cold War were at the time. With the suppression of Catholic Churches in Soviet bloc nations - eastern and western in some places - the idea that the Patriarch of Moscow (whom even some Orthodox called the "Red Patriarch") would be in happy possession of the suppressed Greek Catholic parishes of Ukraine AND starting missions in Italy. Well it could be understandable that P6 would be a little riled.



Not to be flip or discourteous, but I am rather suprised the WR are on the radar at such dialogues. The debate within Orthodoxy about if there is room for a WR and if it is truly Orthodox (with one friend of mine opining that it is at most "not heterodox") seems pretty strong and seems to flow. There seem to be sub-groups of pro-WR folks who can further be broken into a "qualified yes" - "Our rite is the right rite! THIS is WR, not THEM.)

(Years ago, when I was in a bit of a seeker stage convinced enough research would lead me to the PERFECT ecclesial existence, I was in contact with an Orthodox Church of France hieromonk in MI and a "Holy Synod of Old Milan Western Rite Old Calednarist" monk in TX (now defrocked). At the time, both explained to me why they were right, the other was wrong, their canonical status may have been dubious, but the other was definately uncanonical. It made my teenaged head spin....)

So I am curious, when the issue of the WR is even broached, what is said of it by either party? I am having a difficult time imagining a pan-Orthodox panel speaking in a united affirming voice of them.



Am I the only one here who imagined two sunglass-wearing clerics (a la the Blues Brothers) hitting Route 66 in a big old boat of a ride on a mission to "collect the 'dox"?

Alex, can you give us a little more info on the Assyrian Rite and Armenian Rite Chalcedonian parties? I had known that the OCA had an ethnic Assyrian bishop here in the USA (+JOHN?) who passed away a few decades ago. But as I recall he celebrated the Byzantine liturgy...

I thought I read in an older edition of +KALISTOS Ware's "The Orthodox Church" that Armenian parishes reconciled to the Russian Church used Byzantine liturgical books in the Armenian language with some use of the Armenian chants... but not the old Armenian rite. I cannot find reference to this in newer editions and gave away the copy I used to own (where I **THINK** I read it) years ago.

Interestingly Ware's venerable tome in different revised editions over the years have reflected some different and changing attititudes about the WR and the Orthodox Church of France.