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#235901 - 05/22/07 01:33 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
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Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
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I believe the feeling was master should be reserved to the bishop.
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#235905 - 05/22/07 03:53 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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So "the feeling" is more important than accuracy?
Fr. Serge
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#235938 - 05/22/07 10:54 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 731
Loc: Singapore
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That's ridiculous. 'Eulogson, Despota' should ALWAYS be 'Master, bless' or 'Master, give the blessing'. Which bunch of illiterates is responsible for this tomfoolery?
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#235942 - 05/22/07 11:04 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Edward Yong]
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Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 840
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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#235945 - 05/22/07 11:29 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: ByzKat]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
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Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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Somewhere, in the past(unfortunately, I forget where), I read a defense of the use of the term "Master" in a Divine Liturgy served by only a priest. The essence was that, the Bishop, who has the fullness of priesthood, or the simple priest, who shares in that priesthood, in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, is an "alter Christus",or "another Christ", and that when we address the Bishop, or priest, in the Divine Liturgy, as "Master", or "Vladyko", we are actually addressing Christ. I am a bit tentative on this, not remembering where I read it. Perhaps someone can be of help on this.
Dn. Robert
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#235947 - 05/22/07 11:37 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 942
Loc: usa
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So "the feeling" is more important than accuracy?
Moderns have a great sixth sense to determine what men really mean when they are being accurate. What if only women were present at the Divine Liturgy (and I count that as a real possibility) and the term master was used? Now that would be sexist statement!
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#235969 - 05/22/07 01:26 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: ByzKat]
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Member
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 731
Loc: Singapore
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Really? Oh well, nobody's infallible, not even the Pope of Rome!
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#236055 - 05/22/07 08:07 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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To the extent that the Passaic 1997 Liturgicon and practices can be seen as anticipating the 2007 Liturgicon, the trend would be that "Most Reverend Bishop" is used instead of "Master" for the bishop. Thus, for instance:
Lord have mercy.(3) Most Reverend Bishop give the blessing.
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#236057 - 05/22/07 08:17 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Sbdn. John]
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Moderator
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Registered: 08/29/98
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There is some precedent for this in the Ruthenian Recension. It the pre-1965 books: "Many years O master" was sung before "We have seen the true Light" This was removed for the same reason.
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#236076 - 05/22/07 09:55 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: KO63AP]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 840
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Perhaps, or perhaps not. It could be that Archbishop Raya or Fr. Kucharek could have been closet modernists, or radical feminists. But the fact that both of them declined to use "Master" might indicate that there are other arguments involved.
Yours in Christ, Jeff
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#236082 - 05/22/07 11:14 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: ByzKat]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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I wonder what those arguments would be. What is the reason to prefer Reverend Father or presumably when appropriate, Most Reverend Bishop, to Master? Who is impacted by the change?
Consider for instance how many times, if Master were retained, the faithful would actually hear the priest addressed as "Master" during the Divine Liturgy, including the proskomedia. Consider then how many times it is used overall to address the priest, and by whom.
Dcn. Anthony
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#236123 - 05/23/07 10:25 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
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I've recently listened to two live recordings, made on May 13 and May 17, of hierarchical Divine Liturgies from Transylvania. At the start of each, the deacon says "Binecuvinteaza, Parinte!"
So, we do find Orthodox who only say "Master" when directly referring to a hierarch.
Dave
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#236178 - 05/23/07 11:56 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Chtec]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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But this too is a translation issue; and in translating if one does not use Master for Vladyko/Despota then one must distinguish (at least in English or Romanian it seems) who is being addressed. So if the Romanians have the designation right (and I presume they do), the translation of the Ruthenian Archieratikon, p 29, http://www.patronagechurch.com/Archieratikon/htm/28-29.htmfollowing the usage in the 2007 RDL would be Reverend Father give the blessing (or perhaps Very Reverend Father since it is the protopresbyter). Since I doubt anyone would argue that Master is not the most rigorous (accurate?) translation, all this indicates is that in a hierarchical Divine Liturgy a priest(=presbyter) is properly addressed as Master even in the presence of the bishop. Dn. Anthony
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#236396 - 05/24/07 12:49 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Sbdn. John]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
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The recordings I mentioned were Orthodox. I also decided to check the Romanian Liturgikon: both the 2000 edition from Bucureşti and the 2001 edition from Cluj consistently use "părinte" throughout the text.
I also looked at the Holy Cross Seminary (GOA) translation (specifically, the small-sized book with the Entrance Prayers and Proskomedia), and this book also uses "Father" for "Despota."
So, what can we take this to mean? Simply that some Orthodox translators into modern languages (particularly the translators for the entire Romanian Orthodox Church) have decided to use "Father" instead of a more literal "Master."
Dave
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#236586 - 05/25/07 10:22 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Sbdn. John]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
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Well, it being Greek does not surprise me at all considering that they redid their liturgy in the late 19th century. I think I need to clarify again: in the Holy Cross book, the Greek says "Despota" while the English says "Father." They did not change the Greek text. Dave
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#236621 - 05/25/07 12:34 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: KO63AP]
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Member
Registered: 07/12/02
Posts: 1101
Loc: Ѳулκαндρα
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Дїаконъ: Благослови, владико. Oops! The Ukrainian should read:Диякон: Благослови, владико.
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#236801 - 05/26/07 05:58 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth
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Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 1502
Loc: In the Alleghenies, the mother...
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The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Liturgicon says, "Master Give the Blessing" if a Deacon is serving. Seeming that the Ruthenians and the ACROD share common history more than any other Orthodox or Catholic Byzantine Sui Juris church, it would be more prudent than saying the Romanians do this or the Greeks do that. The word Master gives the indication that the priest, the representative of Christ is to give the blessing. Any comment on my thoughts here? I know it was backed up Kobzar, but the issue is, the reverend father give the blessing is an example of incorrectly changing words in the liturgy and the notion that no explanation as to why it was done has to be given. I imagine no comment or explanation will be given for much towards those who had a hand in the "new liturgy of the BCC" most likely feel they've already won with the official promulgation date getting closer, but the people have a RIGHT to know why words were changed (or not changed). I know the explanation for many things were "well, we were trying to return to the more ancient ways (audible anafora for instance)." What gets me is that the argument for returning to a seemingly more "correct" liturgy and erasing what a few people perceived as errors that developed over time, well it doesn't make sense. Why? Because through all of this great speech and a book about fixing things in the liturgy and making them more "correct" goes out the window when the first AUDIBLE sentence the congregation hears wasn't corrected! I hope I made sense. So things can be thrown out, toss in some "God loves us all" because it is "better" and more "correct," and then not even fix the first words of the Liturgy the people are supposed to hear (which, despite all the changes, you are still stuck with the improper "Reverend Father give the Blessing." I don't expect any explanation from those that "are in the know." Although it would be kind and loving to explain why with all the spirit of change the first line of the new liturgy couldn't even be fixed.
Edited by Orthodox Pyrohy. (05/26/07 05:59 PM)
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#236808 - 05/26/07 06:44 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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... then not even fix the first words of the Liturgy the people are supposed to hear (which, despite all the changes, you are still stuck with the improper "Reverend Father give the Blessing."
I don't expect any explanation from those that "are in the know." Although it would be kind and loving to explain why with all the spirit of change the first line of the new liturgy couldn't even be fixed. I presume that Fr. David is one of those in the know. One may not agree with his comments but he has been forthcoming with answers and discussion. He has discussed this point: It is certainly true that despota means, literally, Master. ... The change of title for human beings serving in a particular role was deliberately changed, since Master, in English, is no longer the ordinary greeting for bishops or priests. http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads...true#Post207105Also on his website: http://www.davidpetras.com/page/response I know he has said more on this but I can't find the posts. Dn. Anthony
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#236811 - 05/26/07 07:07 PM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
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Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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#236905 - 05/28/07 11:13 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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To whom (if anyone in particular) is this question addressed?
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#237020 - 05/29/07 09:52 AM
Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
[Re: ajk]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1515
Loc: MD
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To whom (if anyone in particular) is this question addressed? I think my opinion is being confused as being the same as Fr. David's: our opinions differ. I have now found Fr. David's more detailed comments: http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=2&Number=69851&Searchpage=6&Main=5025&Words=Father+David&topic=0&Search=true#Post69851 I (quite some time later, May 2005) emailed him expressing my concerns: That Master is an (antiquated?) address for young males and therefore should not be used can not really be an issue. The people are used to the term in addressing God/Christ, for instance in the reader prayers, O Master forgive our transgressions..., in the mercy Troparion offer this supplication to You, our Master at the very beginning of the anaphora, With these blessed powers, O loving and kind Master, and the Communion prayer Remember me O Master. I dont think anyone would be taken aback by the deacons Master give the blessing (is this in fact the only public use of the term for the priest in the liturgy?). Most of the uses of master by the deacon are a quiet dialog with the priest (e.g. proskomedia). As a deacon, I feel that Reverend Father and worse Most Reverend Bishop is an unnecessary complication, a dreadful mouthful and a pain in the neck --- totally uncalled for wordiness. It is such a relief when (still kept even in the Passaic liturgikon) I can say Master bless the warm water. To me, Master is efficient, direct, and snappy: as it comes to us it applies equally well to bishop, priest, and God; and given its use for the latter, the former two should not have a problem with it being applied to them. [Also, it circumvents honorific titles that are inappropriate in the liturgy.]
I wonder too why the liturgy, especially the anaphora, uses it, along with Lord, as the exclusive address for God. Is the term Father purposely avoided in direct address, except for the unavoidable use in the doxologies? Is there a deference in not using it, even in the anaphora, so that we can climactically, say Our Father? If so, the use of Reverend Father has done the liturgy a great disservice. To the above, Fr, David responded that he took exception to my term "disservice"; he further remarked (I use this with his permission): ... the reason for "vladyko" in the Slavonic ( = Master) or "Despota" in Greek ( = Master) is because that is how those dignitaries were addressed in ordinary life. It is very unlikely that people today will suddenly start calling me "Master" instead of "Father." In regard to liturgical texts, the Byzantines tend to use the address "Father" for the first person of the Trinity for very solemn prayers, it has a kind of exclusivity because it is used in the prayer the Lord taught us, and it was at one time a part of the "disciplina arcana." [emphasis added] What surprised me is that he agrees with my analysis about reserving the use of the direct address of "Father."* Why then should we use it in the translation so (seemingly) indiscriminately? Dn. Anthony * It should be noted that this does not hold for the Basil Anaphora.
Edited by ajk (05/29/07 10:03 AM) Edit Reason: typo
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