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#235893 - 05/22/07 12:27 AM Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing?
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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It should be, if a deacon is serving..
Master give the Blessing...... at the beginning of the Liturgy..
Also during the proskomedia, there are times that say master bless.. and during the liturgy.. the deacon says... Master do this or that.............
Why not so in the new liturgy?

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#235901 - 05/22/07 01:33 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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I believe the feeling was master should be reserved to the bishop.
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#235905 - 05/22/07 03:53 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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So "the feeling" is more important than accuracy?

Fr. Serge

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#235938 - 05/22/07 10:54 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Edward Yong Offline
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That's ridiculous. 'Eulogson, Despota' should ALWAYS be 'Master, bless' or 'Master, give the blessing'. Which bunch of illiterates is responsible for this tomfoolery?

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#235942 - 05/22/07 11:04 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Edward Yong]
ByzKat Offline
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Archbishop Joseph Raya?


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#235945 - 05/22/07 11:29 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ByzKat]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Somewhere, in the past(unfortunately, I forget where), I read a defense of the use of the term "Master" in a Divine Liturgy served by only a priest. The essence was that, the Bishop, who has the fullness of priesthood, or the simple priest, who shares in that priesthood, in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, is an "alter Christus",or "another Christ", and that when we address the Bishop, or priest, in the Divine Liturgy, as "Master", or "Vladyko", we are actually addressing Christ. I am a bit tentative on this, not remembering where I read it. Perhaps someone can be of help on this.

Dn. Robert

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#235947 - 05/22/07 11:37 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
lm Offline
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Quote:
So "the feeling" is more important than accuracy?


Moderns have a great sixth sense to determine what men really mean when they are being accurate. What if only women were present at the Divine Liturgy (and I count that as a real possibility) and the term master was used? Now that would be sexist statement!

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#235969 - 05/22/07 01:26 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ByzKat]
Edward Yong Offline
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Originally Posted By: ByzKat
Archbishop Joseph Raya?



Really? Oh well, nobody's infallible, not even the Pope of Rome!

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#235992 - 05/22/07 03:10 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Edward Yong]
Sbdn. John Offline
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So, when the priest serves, he says master bless? When? It is the deacon's part to ask for the blessing. The priest is serving in stead of the bishop. That is why the blessing is directed to the bishop (master) and not father.

John

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#236055 - 05/22/07 08:07 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
ajk Offline
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To the extent that the Passaic 1997 Liturgicon and practices can be seen as anticipating the 2007 Liturgicon, the trend would be that "Most Reverend Bishop" is used instead of "Master" for the bishop. Thus, for instance:

Lord have mercy.(3) Most Reverend Bishop give the blessing.

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#236057 - 05/22/07 08:17 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Sbdn. John]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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There is some precedent for this in the Ruthenian Recension. It the pre-1965 books: "Many years O master" was sung before "We have seen the true Light" This was removed for the same reason.
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#236063 - 05/22/07 08:59 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Father Borislav Offline
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It should be <Blagoslovi Vladyko> or <Mater Bless> even when there is no Bishop. At least as far as I know.


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#236069 - 05/22/07 09:28 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Father Borislav]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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Yes, it the bishop doesn't have to be there. It's always Master give the Blessing!

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#236075 - 05/22/07 09:52 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
KO63AP Offline
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Perhaps certain people have a problem with the word Master (when referring to a person, not God) and its connotations? Maybe the BCC is now a much friendlier place and has dispensed with such rigid and unequal relationships.


Edited by KO63AP (05/22/07 09:54 PM)

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#236076 - 05/22/07 09:55 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: KO63AP]
ByzKat Offline
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Perhaps, or perhaps not. It could be that Archbishop Raya or Fr. Kucharek could have been closet modernists, or radical feminists. But the fact that both of them declined to use "Master" might indicate that there are other arguments involved.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

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#236082 - 05/22/07 11:14 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ByzKat]
ajk Offline
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I wonder what those arguments would be. What is the reason to prefer Reverend Father or presumably when appropriate, Most Reverend Bishop, to Master? Who is impacted by the change?

Consider for instance how many times, if Master were retained, the faithful would actually hear the priest addressed as "Master" during the Divine Liturgy, including the proskomedia. Consider then how many times it is used overall to address the priest, and by whom.

Dcn. Anthony

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#236086 - 05/23/07 12:57 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ajk]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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Bishop Raya was not Ruthenian Catholic..............................
So what's the reason for not using the Vladkyo Blah(g)oslovi in the Ruthenian situation?

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#236110 - 05/23/07 09:33 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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In my parish, we sometimes take petitions in Church Slavonic. Whenever I chant the Litany of Peace in Slavonic, I start off with Blahoslovi, Vladyko, simply because that is what is in the book!

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

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#236123 - 05/23/07 10:25 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
Chtec Offline
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I've recently listened to two live recordings, made on May 13 and May 17, of hierarchical Divine Liturgies from Transylvania. At the start of each, the deacon says "Binecuvinteaza, Parinte!"

So, we do find Orthodox who only say "Master" when directly referring to a hierarch.

Dave

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#236171 - 05/23/07 11:48 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Chtec]
Sbdn. John Offline
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True, Chtec, but I have never heard in Father bless since I have been Orthodox. Also, was that Romanian Orthodox? IN Portland, OR we have almost all "flavors" of Orthodoxy and all use master, even the Greeks.


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#236178 - 05/23/07 11:56 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Chtec]
ajk Offline
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But this too is a translation issue; and in translating if one does not use Master for Vladyko/Despota then one must distinguish (at least in English or Romanian it seems) who is being addressed.

So if the Romanians have the designation right (and I presume they do), the translation of the Ruthenian Archieratikon, p 29,

http://www.patronagechurch.com/Archieratikon/htm/28-29.htm

following the usage in the 2007 RDL would be Reverend Father give the blessing (or perhaps Very Reverend Father since it is the protopresbyter).

Since I doubt anyone would argue that Master is not the most rigorous (accurate?) translation, all this indicates is that in a hierarchical Divine Liturgy a priest(=presbyter) is properly addressed as Master even in the presence of the bishop.

Dn. Anthony


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#236396 - 05/24/07 12:49 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Sbdn. John]
Chtec Offline
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The recordings I mentioned were Orthodox. I also decided to check the Romanian Liturgikon: both the 2000 edition from Bucure&#351;ti and the 2001 edition from Cluj consistently use "p&#259;rinte" throughout the text.

I also looked at the Holy Cross Seminary (GOA) translation (specifically, the small-sized book with the Entrance Prayers and Proskomedia), and this book also uses "Father" for "Despota."

So, what can we take this to mean? Simply that some Orthodox translators into modern languages (particularly the translators for the entire Romanian Orthodox Church) have decided to use "Father" instead of a more literal "Master."

Dave

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#236414 - 05/24/07 01:35 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Chtec]
Sbdn. John Offline
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Well, it being Greek does not surprise me at all considering that they redid their liturgy in the late 19th century. What I was told by my bishop was that a normal liturgy is one with a bishop. A liturgy with a priest is less than a full liturgy. A priest serves at the pleasure of the ruling bishop. The only time we should say "father bless", is at the dismissal.

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#236504 - 05/24/07 06:46 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Sbdn. John]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Liturgicon says, "Master Give the Blessing" if a Deacon is serving. Seeming that the Ruthenians and the ACROD share common history more than any other Orthodox or Catholic Byzantine Sui Juris church, it would be more prudent than saying the Romanians do this or the Greeks do that.
The word Master gives the indication that the priest, the representative of Christ is to give the blessing.

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#236550 - 05/25/07 04:33 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
KO63AP Offline
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The Recensio Rutena "&#1051;&#1111;&#1090;&#1091;&#1088;&#1075;&#1111;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1098;" - the 'standard' held in common by the BCC and the UGCC - states that at the beginning of the Divine Liturgy:
&#1044;&#1111;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1098;: &#1041;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;, &#1074;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1099;&#1082;&#1086;.

The recent Ukrainian and English texts prepared by the Basilians, in spite of all their faults, give:
&#1044;&#1111;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1098;: &#1041;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;, &#1074;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;.
Deacon: Master, give the blessing.

(In all cases above, my emphasis)

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#236586 - 05/25/07 10:22 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Sbdn. John]
Chtec Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sbdn. John
Well, it being Greek does not surprise me at all considering that they redid their liturgy in the late 19th century.


I think I need to clarify again: in the Holy Cross book, the Greek says "Despota" while the English says "Father." They did not change the Greek text.

Dave

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#236613 - 05/25/07 12:23 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Chtec]
Sbdn. John Offline
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Then the service should be done in Greek for that part and skip the English!

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#236620 - 05/25/07 12:32 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Chtec]
KO63AP Offline
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The books prepared for the Greek Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain (1995) give:
&#917;&#965;&#955;&#972;&#947;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;, &#916;&#941;&#963;&#960;&#959;&#964;&#945;.
Master, give the blessing.

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#236621 - 05/25/07 12:34 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: KO63AP]
KO63AP Offline
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Quote:
&#1044;&#1111;&#1072;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;&#1098;: &#1041;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;, &#1074;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;.

Oops! The Ukrainian should read:
&#1044;&#1080;&#1103;&#1082;&#1086;&#1085;: &#1041;&#1083;&#1072;&#1075;&#1086;&#1089;&#1083;&#1086;&#1074;&#1080;, &#1074;&#1083;&#1072;&#1076;&#1080;&#1082;&#1086;.

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#236801 - 05/26/07 05:58 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy.
The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese Liturgicon says, "Master Give the Blessing" if a Deacon is serving. Seeming that the Ruthenians and the ACROD share common history more than any other Orthodox or Catholic Byzantine Sui Juris church, it would be more prudent than saying the Romanians do this or the Greeks do that.
The word Master gives the indication that the priest, the representative of Christ is to give the blessing.


Any comment on my thoughts here? I know it was backed up Kobzar, but the issue is, the reverend father give the blessing is an example of incorrectly changing words in the liturgy and the notion that no explanation as to why it was done has to be given.
I imagine no comment or explanation will be given for much towards those who had a hand in the "new liturgy of the BCC" most likely feel they've already won with the official promulgation date getting closer, but the people have a RIGHT to know why words were changed (or not changed). I know the explanation for many things were "well, we were trying to return to the more ancient ways (audible anafora for instance)."
What gets me is that the argument for returning to a seemingly more "correct" liturgy and erasing what a few people perceived as errors that developed over time, well it doesn't make sense.
Why? Because through all of this great speech and a book about fixing things in the liturgy and making them more "correct" goes out the window when the first AUDIBLE sentence the congregation hears wasn't corrected!
I hope I made sense. So things can be thrown out, toss in some "God loves us all" because it is "better" and more "correct," and then not even fix the first words of the Liturgy the people are supposed to hear (which, despite all the changes, you are still stuck with the improper "Reverend Father give the Blessing."

I don't expect any explanation from those that "are in the know."
Although it would be kind and loving to explain why with all the spirit of change the first line of the new liturgy couldn't even be fixed.


Edited by Orthodox Pyrohy. (05/26/07 05:59 PM)

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#236808 - 05/26/07 06:44 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
ajk Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy.
... then not even fix the first words of the Liturgy the people are supposed to hear (which, despite all the changes, you are still stuck with the improper "Reverend Father give the Blessing."

I don't expect any explanation from those that "are in the know."
Although it would be kind and loving to explain why with all the spirit of change the first line of the new liturgy couldn't even be fixed.


I presume that Fr. David is one of those in the know. One may not agree with his comments but he has been forthcoming with answers and discussion. He has discussed this point:

Quote:
It is certainly true that despota means, literally, Master. ... The change of title for human beings serving in a particular role was deliberately changed, since Master, in English, is no longer the ordinary greeting for bishops or priests.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads...true#Post207105


Also on his website: http://www.davidpetras.com/page/response

I know he has said more on this but I can't find the posts.

Dn. Anthony


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#236811 - 05/26/07 07:07 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
ajk Offline
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#236844 - 05/27/07 03:23 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ajk]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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I address my Bishop as Master, I am not sure about the argument that this has fallen away. When I see the Bishop I say, "Vladyka Blahoslovi" or Master Bless.
The issue is the Deacon saying "Master give the Blessing" HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BISHOP. It is the Deacon asking the priest, the sacramental presence of Christ to give the blessing....
Now do you get it?

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#236905 - 05/28/07 11:13 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: Orthodox Pyrohy]
ajk Offline
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Originally Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy.
Now do you get it?


To whom (if anyone in particular) is this question addressed?

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#236937 - 05/28/07 03:21 PM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ajk]
Orthodox Pyrohy Offline
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how do I say it.... using Master Bless is more than just a linguistics game. However it is another overlooked statement meant to carry a meaning of the Divine that is just reduced to the whims of a linguistics game. Like I stated above the deacon is asking the priest, the sacramental presence of Christ to give the blessing..

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#237020 - 05/29/07 09:52 AM Re: Vladyko Blahoslovi.... why Reverend Father Give the blessing? [Re: ajk]
ajk Offline
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Originally Posted By: ajk
Originally Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy.
Now do you get it?


To whom (if anyone in particular) is this question addressed?


Originally Posted By: Orthodox Pyrohy.
how do I say it....


I think my opinion is being confused as being the same as Fr. David's: our opinions differ. I have now found Fr. David's more detailed comments:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=2&Number=69851&Searchpage=6&Main=5025&Words=Father+David&topic=0&Search=true#Post69851

I (quite some time later, May 2005) emailed him expressing my concerns:

Originally Posted By: Deacon Anthony (private email)
That Master is an (antiquated?) address for young males and therefore should not be used can not really be an issue. The people are used to the term in addressing God/Christ, for instance in the reader prayers, O Master forgive our transgressions..., in the mercy Troparion offer this supplication to You, our Master at the very beginning of the anaphora, With these blessed powers, O loving and kind Master, and the Communion prayer Remember me O Master. I dont think anyone would be taken aback by the deacons Master give the blessing (is this in fact the only public use of the term for the priest in the liturgy?). Most of the uses of master by the deacon are a quiet dialog with the priest (e.g. proskomedia). As a deacon, I feel that Reverend Father and worse Most Reverend Bishop is an unnecessary complication, a dreadful mouthful and a pain in the neck --- totally uncalled for wordiness. It is such a relief when (still kept even in the Passaic liturgikon) I can say Master bless the warm water. To me, Master is efficient, direct, and snappy: as it comes to us it applies equally well to bishop, priest, and God; and given its use for the latter, the former two should not have a problem with it being applied to them. [Also, it circumvents honorific titles that are inappropriate in the liturgy.]

I wonder too why the liturgy, especially the anaphora, uses it, along with Lord, as the exclusive address for God. Is the term Father purposely avoided in direct address, except for the unavoidable use in the doxologies? Is there a deference in not using it, even in the anaphora, so that we can climactically, say Our Father? If so, the use of Reverend Father has done the liturgy a great disservice.


To the above, Fr, David responded that he took exception to my term "disservice"; he further remarked (I use this with his permission):

Originally Posted By: Fr. David (private email)
... the reason for "vladyko" in the Slavonic ( = Master) or "Despota" in Greek ( = Master) is because that is how those dignitaries were addressed in ordinary life. It is very unlikely that people today will suddenly start calling me "Master" instead of "Father." In regard to liturgical texts, the Byzantines tend to use the address "Father" for the first person of the Trinity for very solemn prayers, it has a kind of exclusivity because it is used in the prayer the Lord taught us, and it was at one time a part of the "disciplina arcana." [emphasis added]


What surprised me is that he agrees with my analysis about reserving the use of the direct address of "Father."* Why then should we use it in the translation so (seemingly) indiscriminately?

Dn. Anthony

* It should be noted that this does not hold for the Basil Anaphora.



Edited by ajk (05/29/07 10:03 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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