One of my brothers from St. Ann's was received into the OCA today. He sent all his friends a letter explaining that this is why we haven't seen him around for a while. He entered the Byzantine Church from the Latin Church on April 14th, 2001. He was fleeing the Novus Ordo and I know for a fact that he feels highly betrayed by what the bishops did to the Liturgical rubrics.

Here is my response.

My dearest friend --

I say this in love and in no way wish to mitigate or downplay the pain you have felt going through this experience. What you have done is no different than what Luther did 500 + years ago. The Church has made a mistake and you have decided that reather than hang in with the Church and pray, write letters, and oppose in love this change, you are leaving.

I thought about leaving also. The thought of Orthodoxy was very enticing to me. But I am convinced beyond any argumentation that based on the covenantal model of the family, there can be but one head over a family. There are not 5 heads. There is but one head. Even when one has a bad head over the family, that does not change the structure of the family unit.. The anthropomorphic form of God's kingdom is seen in scripture as the family, and until someone can show me otherwise (whcih I do not expect to happen soon) I cannot in good conscience lightly violate those vows which I took on Holy Saturday 6 years ago. I must stay and pray. I must work from within for the unity which our Lord desires in John 17 and until the time that He moves in this direction (and perhaps knocks a few heads together to get it done) I must endure such shenanigans with faith and patience.

I hope that the bishops can sleep well at night. Far from creating a better situation in the Church, they have caused pain, suffering, and dissent. The turmoil being felt by people is palpable. There was simply no reason to bow to the desires of a minority or the world around us for "inclusive language". Worse than that, to change the wording of the Nicene Creed implies that the men who sat at the Council of Nicea were not led of the Holy Spirit to write the canons they did, defend the Deity of Christ, and give us this beautiful Creed. In other words, they were subject to some error in their translation and understanding. This, of course, opens a distinct can of worms beause if they were not led of the Holy Spirit to give us the Creed in the form it is in, then what else did they get wrong? What is up for grabs next? I think this goes to the very heart of the issue with our Roman bretheren and the addition of the "filoque clause" to the Creed without a council's approval.

I wish you well, my brother. No hard feelings. But I am disappointed that such a brilliant mind as yours would not hang in there with us as we strive to overturn this error. It is easy to leave. It is harder to stay, write those letters, and pray that God would open the eyes of those who have made these changes. It is especially hard not to utter sharp words against the bishops who have done this, but nonetheless, these are men who are honored with the apostolic unction, and may God forgive me if I harbor in my heart or utter from my mouth any ill feelings towards them. May He grace me with love and respect towards those who are in authority over me, even while I believe with all my heart that they have erred in this area.

Best regards,



Ed -- your brother in Christ.

I can think of many areas and issues where Luther and his teachings were anathema. Can you name for me how Orthodoxy is similar to this because I can't.

+John Paul II and Pope Benedict have both gone on record saying that it is not incorrect for people in good conscious to go to the Orthodox Church. I find it hard to believe that they would say the same about the Lutheran church.

I understand that you are frustrated with the fact that our church has lost yet another traditionally minded member, I've experienced the same exact situation as you described in your post several times myself. However, I don't think that these people are like Luther at all. I've said it a thousand times, and I guess I'll have to say it another thousand times, these people don't see themselves as leaving the church, the church has left them. Can you or anyone here refute that?

Monomakh

Monomakh,

I've seen this idea bantered about on the internet, but I cannot find any documentation to back it up. Please would you point me in the direction to find where Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have written that it is permissible to break from Rome and enter the Orthodox Church?

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

Dr. Eric,

I thought that our Admin here had recently posted the info but it was just a reference to it as well:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads...true#Post231860

I'll get on the other computer I've got here where I store stuff like that and find it.

Monomakh

I know the poster who was received into Orthodoxy today, and after many PM's with him I can say that he was very disappointed with the state of the Ruthenian church as much as I was.

I hope and pray that he finds peace and happiness in his new spiritual home, just as I have.

Altar boy,
You say "no hard feelings" in your letter but you start out by basically calling him a heretic by writing the luther comment.
Why you posted this I have no idea. You letter was very crass and frankly it wasn't your business to condemn another human being in such a manner.

Wow! No wonder people here can't have irenic conversations. You only missed my point by about a mile or so.

My post was not a slap against Orthodoxy. It was a slap against people who run from problems and situations that they don't like. Especially since our Lord said that we are to be ONE people. Leaving for anything else doesn't help the situation at all!

Luther left.

My friend left.

Don't you see the similarity?

How come you didn't get that?

Brother Ed

I'll ask again, in the whole scheme of things who's really leaving who, the group advocating change or the one defending tradition? This is how the people who are leaving are thinking, I happen to know first hand many of them (although I am not one).

In your example, was Luther advocating change or status quo? You'll answer your own question with this answer. (Oh boy, I'm getting dangerously close to being accused of accusing the RDL with Lutherism! Before the gloves come off realize I'm not writing that)


Monomakh

No, the reason he left is between him and God. Comparing him to Luther is a huge slap. He didn't leave and is protesting Rome (protestants). It's like the chicken and the egg argument, only you can solve this one....... the Orthodox Church existed in the Carpathian Mountains before the Greek/Byzantine Catholic Churches did. Comparing him to luther is just wrong and if I had received a letter like that from someone I knew well, I would have one of those few moments that I am actually speechless.

Perhaps I have a pollyannish view of things, but I just think that prayers, letters, and most of all, the withholding of funding in the collection basket, would be a good way to work for change without leaving.

I don't think my friend really gave it a chance. Who knows? Perhaps in a couple of years I will be so burnt out and frustrated I will be ready to join him. But right now, the fray is young and we should get about writing those letters and saying those prayers. (Which I intend to do today).

Brother Ed

If I could kindly get Luther out of this and add this, or maybe say that this is what would be in my letter to those who have gone to Orthodoxy or are considering it:

While I understand the reasons (believe you me) for leaving, I would ask you, if it is possible, to travel to Brampton, Ontario (just outside of Toronto) and experience a liturgy at St. Elias there. I think that you would find everything that you are looking for, and the salient point is not for all us to move to Brampton and become parishoners there, but to realize that one can be Catholic and Orthodox at the same time, that it is truly possible. However, it just isn't happening in 90%+ of parishes in North America. And don't try to tell me that when 90%+ of our churches don't have Vespers or Matins that it is happening. Don't try to tell me that when liturgy is over in 45 minutes as I experienced today at my BCA church that something isn't wrong.

The point is that it can happen. Have those who are on the ledge and considering Orthodoxy considered the UGCC? They've got their liberal places as well, but they also have (i.e. St. Elias) some 'Orthodox' ones as well. I'm not advocating it as much as I am just throwing it our there for comment?


Monomakh

Save your stamps! You're just supplying the chancery with a lot of scratch pads if you send them...

Save your stamps! You're just supplying the chancery with a lot of scratch pads if you send them...

Really?

So you are saying that the concerns of the sheep are not of concern to the shepherds?

Brother Ed

Has anyone here received a reply from a letter sent to any of the Bishops?

Sounds like a good idea Monomakh, but every UGCC church I've been to was very Latinized with recited (gag!) Liturgies.

Etick,

I'm not saying that the UGCC is without it's issues (to be kind). St. Andrew's in Parma in Ohio here is interesting to attend to say the least with it's altar girls, recited liturgies, kneeling on Sundays, etc.

I just think that if more churches were like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emcry2SU4vI

that many of you would still be with us. Note I said many not all.

Monomakh

I watched that video some time ago and couldn't believe my eyes. Hard to believe that it's a Greek Catholic Church. They are a parish that should be emulated by all Greek Catholics, and some Orthodox parishes could also learn a thing or two.

Come to Assumption UGCC in St. Louis, all singing all the time!

Etick,

This isn't meant to be an infomercial for St. Elias in Brmapton, but rather food for thought for those who are considering leaving. Once again, it is possible to be Catholic and Orthodox at the same time.

If the principles and traditions practiced at St. Elias were proprogated at more of our churches, real renewal would take place in faith and growth.

Archbishop Basil has called for 'an athentic place of worship'.

Let's start with St. John's in Munhall.

What time is Vespers this Saturday?

What time is Matins next Sunday?

What time is the bonfire with the pews?

That should be a good start.

Monomakh


ps
If you like the other video check this one out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7AS-306DxY

Is it an all ENGLISH sung Liturgy? I have yet to witness it at any UGC church. The completely sung liturgies were always in Ukrainian.

Etnick,

It is a bilingual Liturgy as half are Ukrainian-Americans "fresh off the boat" and half are "Americans" whose first language is English.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

Monomakh, that statement leaves me a little perplexed. If one can be Orthodox and Catholic at the same time, why does my priest tell me I can't commune outside of the Orthodox Church?

Absolutely crucial point Etnik!!

This is why the Catholic Church makes plain the difference between a "material" schismatic, and a "formal" schismatic.

A formal schismatic who meets the Church's criteria is said to be sinfully participating in a sinful act.

A material schismatic may have circumstances that mitigate their participation in formal schism and are not condemned by the Church in any way, though I cannot imagine any of our recent popes encouraging such willful participation.

That being said, the Catholic position toward Orthodoxy is one of economy while the Orthodox position toward the Catholic Church remains one of acriva.

Mary

I am sorry to say this thread is all over the place. Very little has anything to do with the RDL, and it seems that a number of misunderstandings have occurred. I strongly suggest that the initial post be reworded as to what is being sought in discussion and re-attempted either in this section if that is the main focus of the thread or in the appropriate section for that subject. Again only if that is what that poster wants. In the meantime this thread is closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator